[Lee H Weber]

I have a 68 Chevelle I just bought about 6 months ago. When I got it I would consider it a "10 footer." Most would have said I was nuts when I wanted to redo the paint but I did as I was noticing some bubbles in the usual spots (rear QTRS and front fenders, lower areas and around the vinyl top). Well, I got some estimates and I went with this shop that just opened up around here. The owner just broke loose from a "big shop" and is trying to make it on his on. He has all new equipment, really top notch booths, etc.
During his estimate quote with me I told him I was not sure what was on the car as I just acquired it but I did know the paint job was a few years old (5 - 8 years old) and looked to be holding up well. He quoted me a job that included door jams, stripping and engine compartment work as well as the trunk. The stripping time he had writen on his estimate was for 13 hours.
My car went to him two weeks ago. Today he called me and told me I needed to come over to the shop as he was running into some "stuff" that he wasn't sure of, nor had come across before, nor was he expecting.
I have zero knowledge of paint or what is what. But, I will make an attempt at explaining to you what the painter was explaining to me and what I saw for myself. The problem the painter was having was he was not having the usual success with his chemical stripper. He was having to do it two to three times. He did the deck lid and it took two times to get all the material off and get it down to bare metal. With that, what he was running into was this yellow coating that was very, very, very thick. He said something like 10 mils thick. And, in some spots it was a 16th of an inch thick. This stuff looked like a spray on bondo almost, but was definitely not bondo as it is over the entire car in what appears to be a sprayed on finish. In various spots we did take down to bare metal the metal looked very good except the roof which had a lot of pits - which was expected with the car having always had the vinyl top.
My questions -what could this stuff be? Is there an easier process to get this off? Is there a better chemical stripper than what he is using - a PPG stripper that cost about 25 dollars a gallon. Painter says its the strongest stuff out there.
He wants to forgo the stripping portion of the job as he says he may run into some "body work" that he did not know was there because of this "coating." You see, this coating was used to I guess take out waves and then it was block sanded. The car was relatively "straight" before this project. Is it possible that all this material could be is a primer just laid on very, very thick by some beginner not knowing what to do, or by some shop trying to cut corners? On a professional note - should I force him to do the work he said he would do in the contract regardless of what "extra" work he may come across. He's talking about having it cost me quite a bit more if he has to strip as he may run into some body work that he did not account for when doing up the estimate. Suggestions on what to do would be appreciated. And, last question - if you think you know what this material is, should it come off if I am looking for a show type quality work?
Thanks ahead of time.

 

[drptop70ss]

Sounds like you ran into some PPG K200 primer/surfacer, I use it and love it. I would say though this paint is very common, and your body man must not know much if he couldnt identify it. The other thing that shows his lack of experience is the deal with all of the sudden he is worried about bodywork under the paint. What the heck did he think he would find under bubbling paint that obviously wasnt original? I dont know what to tell you to do with him, this is one more reason I do my own work.

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Dave (NY)
70 chevelle ss396 conv
66 chevelle ss396 hdp/conv
72 chevelle
TC member #493
Never forget Earnhardt!

 

[70isfine]

Sounds like Z-chrome or Featherfill.A sprayable filler basically,spray it on over a large area and block it to get the surface straight.I personally would never give a quote on stripping a car and painting it because you never know what your going to find.Most shops that do that kind of work are time and material.you pay the time it takes and the material it takes.Your choices are forget stripping the entire car,fix the problem areas paint the car and hope for the best.Or strip the car and have him give you a new estimate when he can see the extent of the work that needs to be done.If you want a show job i say strip it but it can get expensive.I cant beleive a body shop would expect to strip a 30 year old car and not have any extra body work to do.I personally know of a guy who spent over 10K on what was supposed to be a clean original car.He took it to be redone,had it media blasted and almost cried at what he saw.ended up spending over $3000 in new sheetmetal(GM)plus the cost of installation and paint,probaly another 10K. Good luck.

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70 chevelle,400cid turbo400.blue with silver stripes.
http://members.spree.com/entertainment/ochrisl/

 

[Noneck]

I would definitely strip it now that you are into it. You could stripit yourself to save on some labor and then take the car to him stripped and start from there. Easy job for you to do on your own and save probably around $40-50/ hr which he's probably paying some pimply faced high school kid $5 and hour to do!

 

[pipeman]

your painters lack of knowledge as to the product on your car is a classic example of "This is going to run a little more than my estimate" Any bodyman worth his salt has to expect the unexpected, so to speak, Your best bet is to discuss the situation with him and see if you and him can come up with a compromise, but again on 30 plus year old car with bubbling paint, what did he think, one application of stripper, and prime and paint, again, stick to your guns and work with him so it doesn't turn into a nightmare for you.

 

[micky69396]

Lee, you need to strip that car, find what all the real prblems are and fix it right. You will spend less money in the long run having it done right the first time. Have it media blasted and dont use that chemical crap anymore. You might spend a few dollars more right now but save yourself some agony. Your body guy that left a shop was probably doing collision stuff and is figuring time with what he was doing compared to these old cars. I can tell you right now it will be over his time he told you.

 

[MARTINSR]

Not like you needed more of the same but.....I too think it is polyester primer like Feather fill or Evercoats Slick sand. The mistakes the body man has made is that he is a body man. He may be very good at doing collision work or even similar body work, but needs some time to get up to speed with what to expect. I was a body man who opened up a shop because I thought "What more could I need to know, I can do the work". This is a HUGE mistake, being a good body man is one of the least important things when running a shop. I had some VERY COSTLY mistakes like this one, the learning curve is STEEP!
I bid on chopping the top on a 1955 Chevy pickup, to make a long story short, I made about $1.00 an hour on the job. Should you pay him more than the estimate? this is up to you. I would look at a few different things to make your decision.

Were the other estimates much more than the one he gave you?

In other words were they about what his "new" estimate would be?

Did you go to him because he was the least, or because that is all you could afford?

Did the others say, we have to strip it and then give you a price on the body work? If this is yes, then you knew going in that he was foolish giving you a price.

If you want this guy to do the car, I would make a deal with him on a compromise. You both learned, and one shouldn't pay for the other. He should learn to "ask for the money" and you should learn that not everyone knows everything and YOU need to really do your home work.

On the leaving the paint thing. It is such a hard call, if the material is that thick, there is a good chance it needs to be there to make the finish look like a "10 footer" as apposed to a "50 footer". But I have seen where people have put WAY more filler or primer than was needed to block out the panel, so it is real hard to say unless you remove it. I have many times blocked something like this for quite a bit, removing a LOT of material only to get it straighter and straighter, ending up with 1/4 of the filler or primer and having it straighter than they did with all that junk on it. I will tell you the cost of striping a car and then starting with a simi rough body (about 99% of 30 year old cars) and painting, you will have a bill of about $8,000.00 to $10,000.00 or more. It costs A LOT to do this, because it is a TON of labor. Your bodyman, just didn't understand how much. ALL old cars that are stripped will have about 20 to 40 hours of body work. This is if you see nothing to begin with! This is a mistake many guys make, they look at the car through rose colored glasses, afraid to tell you the real cost. I have found that you look the car one panel at a time and figure how long it will take to repair,then double that AT LEAST, maybe even triple it. You do this in your head of coarse, not telling the customer. You then will have a much closer estimate, your customer may not like it, but you won't have any surprizes for him either. This is still only an ESTIMATE, you HAVE to do these jobs at T&M (time and materials) . You nor the customer is going to know what you will find when the paint is stripped. So why should the shop pay for not seeing through the paint like Superman? BUT if they are so inexperianced to give a solid esimate, maybe they should learn now how to write an estimate on such a job.


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1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

[This message has been edited by MARTINSR (edited 07-22-2001).]

 

[inspctor58]

Lee, I have found multiple coats or thick filler and primer coats are easier to strip with a sander than with chemical strippers.A polisher/grinder with 80 grit stick-on sandpaper works pretty well. Still very time consuming, but if you could do it yourself it might save you $800 to $1000 labor. But the entire vehicle may not need to be stripped. If the existing primer and filler is still solid and adhereing well, not cracked or peeling, it might be possible to just repair the problem areas and block sand the rest out really well. Ask your body man if he thinks that would be an option. A lot of shops don't want to paint over previous paint and bodywork because they have to gaurantee the job without knowing what's underneath. I've had bodyshops refuse to make any kind of estimate on a paint job without stripping it completely first, then it's time and materials. If you could find a small shop that does a lot of classic car work you might be better off.

 

[BillK]

Lee,
I cant help you as fer as the material on the car. I did want to add however that I have a friend that does custom and restoration jobs and he also will not give any type of estimate toher than what it will cost to do the stripping job. After that it just depends on what you find. Its similar to someone bringing me a motor and asking for an estimate to rebuild it. I can try my best, but if I get it apart and find out it needs a crank, or one of the heads is cracked...the price has to go up accordingly. If your body guy gave you an estimate going on the assumption that the car was in pretty good shape under the existing paint, and then you find a bunch of previous cover up type body work, I dont think its fair to him to have to stick with the original estimate.
Just my opinion,

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Bill Koustenis
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md

1971 Heavy Chevy - original owner
Team Chevelle #100

 

[1969sleeper]

Lee,

The stuff you are describing sounds exactly like a surfacer. I used a similar product from Sikkens on my 1969 Chevelle. We thinned it out and then sprayed it on the car. Once it was cured we block sanded the whole car to perfect the highlights. What we ended up with after block sanding was bare metal in the high spots and a skim coat in the low spots but at no point was it ever deeper than 3mm thick. Surfacer cures really hard. It is easier and much quick to takes it off with a DA sander than chemical stripping.

My opinion on what to do with the car now is to complete the stripping. Once you are into it like you are you have to complete it or the vehicle will most likely end up very wavy once the paint is shot.

Either that or shoot the whole car in flat black crinkle coat.

Good Luck,

Bill

 

[chip454]

Just my .02. Consider using another shop and not just any if you want show results. I would think twice before using the new guy in town. You will probably be better off if you do a little research and find a reputable and long standing shop that is up to a show-type job and paying the extra dough. Focus more on the long-term success of the project first and the short term cost second.

 

[LarryH]

Re: What is this stuff? And, what should I do with it and my body man?

My son and I just stripped our 68 in about 20 hours with paint remover disks
they fit in a 4 1/2" grinder . They take off paint an do not hurt the metal.
they look similar to a 3m scrubbing pad. Cuts through bondo and what ever else is on the car except metal.

 

[NovaBojoII]

Re: What is this stuff? And, what should I do with it and my body man?

Ok, I have a question. I just got my 67 Nova home and it needs to be brought down to bare metal. Body is in very good condition minus one little thing that was brought out by a friend.
First question. My friend who does body work as a hobby said to use a DA sander with 80 grit paper to bring it to bare metal. I am a woodworker and have several Random Orbit sanders, 3 DeWalts and 2 Porter Cable. I showed them to my friend, BTW he is also my Snap On sales guy, and he said there would be no difference in the end resupt. One just uses air to operate it and mine are electric. Will my sanders do just as efficient a job say as an air operated DA sander. They are both Random Orbit and I can also hook a vacuum to my sanders or use the dust catcher that is on the sanders.
Second Question, Manny also noticed that on the right rear quater panel that it was pushed in, not dented but just stressed. It pops right out if you reach inside the trunk and gently push on the quater panel.
He told me to take a torch and right around the center of the stressed are to block it from behind like maybe a board between the quater panel and lightly pressed into my roll bar just for support and to keep the metal from pushing back in, then heat a small spot about the size of a nicle or a quater to red hot then splash cold water on that spot immediately to heat shrink the metal and hopefully pull that stressed spot back to where it should be. There is no dent or rippeling but you can feel just a very tiny high spot near the front of the stressed area. What do you all think about this?
Sorry if this is a highjack of the original post and if it is it would be my pleasure to remove it and repost in a new question. Thanks so much for any and all help on this. Spiderman.

 

[dr]

Re: What is this stuff? And, what should I do with it and my body man?

I'm no body man, but if the guy gave you a price on an old car before the paint came off, I would not have gone to him in the first place. You should pay him for work done and then go find a good body shop. This guy does not sound like he's going to do the type of job your looking for. Dave

 

[LKN BCK]

Re: What is this stuff? And, what should I do with it and my body man?

I'm no body man, but if the guy gave you a price on an old car before the paint came off, I would not have gone to him in the first place. You should pay him for work done and then go find a good body shop. This guy does not sound like he's going to do the type of job your looking for. Dave

I agree! He may be setting you up and feeling you out...
then he may try to clean your clock if you are not carefull.
BEWARE

 

[lrisner]

Re: What is this stuff? And, what should I do with it and my body man?

This is exactly why people in our hobby have such a hard time finding body shops interested in working on our cars. If you take your 2001 z71 in for paint job you should fully expect the bid to be honored. However, to take a 30+ yr old car in and expect the bodyman to have x-ray vision and know before hand what's under the paint is unresonable in my opinion.

In this case the bodyman screwed up even qouting you a price really. The only way to expect a firm bid is to expect a HIGH bid. Anything less is asking for trouble. I do "hobby" work for people and only work on t+m if it's old. If you come to me with your 2001 z71, I will give you a firm bid. Come in your old Chevelle and it's t+m or sticker shock time if you insist on a price.

The guy was foolish but not greedy. I think you should work with him on the money and get your car straightened out. Good Luck.


LDR