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7duece

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
All, this is my first post and I am excited to finally be a part of the Chevelle crowd. I need help though. I am a decent wrench, but don't know everything. Here is what I have...a 72 as my name suggests...

350 with 350 turbo
Engine is bored .040" over, flat top pistons
Short headers
Heads with 2.02 I/ 1.60 E and 64 CC chamber
1.6 lift on roller rockers (tall valve covers with 2 vents)
Edelbrock Performer #2101 Intake (dual plane)
Edelbrock Performer Carb. #1406
Mild cam (unknown duration etc. as I did not install)
HEI Distributor
2.5" dual exhaust w/ X pipe and turbo muffs
Stock 10 bolt rearend.

What can I do to give her a little more pep without mortgaging the house? I am thinking of changing the intake to an Edelbrock Performer EPS which is supposed to be tuned for the 350

I also have a spacer that I recently removed from under the carb. Is it better to have it or not?

Thanks to all for the read and assistance

Scott:beers:
 
Ditto on the RPM. Ditch the performer carb for a Demon, at least 3:73 cogs in the rear if you they aren't, more cam duration, decent headers and a good after market ignition will wake any SB up.
 
Welcome aboard Scott. Holley 4150 carb (600 CFM), Edelbrock RPM manifold, 3.73 gears in the rear end, and real headers with 1 5/8" diameter primary tubes, instead of "shorty" headers. In that order.

BTW, what ignition do you have? Electronic, or points? If you have the original points distributor, I'd go with electronic ignition. My preference is the "Pro Billet" MSD distributors with the MSD 6AL box.

Those things would be the most cost effective measures that you can take at this point. After that, if you still aren't satisfoed, and you want more power, it would then be time to pick out a new camshaft, and an aftermarket torque converter with the appropriate stall speed needed for the cam chosen.
 
Discussion starter · #8 ·
Thanks for the input...will get the intake..also looking to dress the girl up so i wanted to get a endurashine one or whatever they call it.

Where is a good site to look at pricing for the rear end gears? Can I swap them out or do i need a totally new rear end?

Everything is tuned up...just out of the shop with the new heads on.

The headers are the 1 5/8" collectors and not "shortys". I mispoke earlier.

The ignition is electronic.

The Edelbrock carb I have is either 650 or 700 cfm square bore. How is the Holly or Demon better / different?:confused:

i think that answered the majority of the return questions.

Thanks for all the help.
 
Thanks for the input...will get the intake..also looking to dress the girl up so i wanted to get a endurashine one or whatever they call it.

Where is a good site to look at pricing for the rear end gears? Can I swap them out or do i need a totally new rear end?

Everything is tuned up...just out of the shop with the new heads on.

The headers are the 1 5/8" collectors and not "shortys". I mispoke earlier.

The ignition is electronic.

The Edelbrock carb I have is either 650 or 700 cfm square bore. How is the Holly or Demon better / different?:confused:

i think that answered the majority of the return questions.

Thanks for all the help.
www.summitracing.com you'll be like a kid in the candy store. :yes:

A number of guys don't like the Edelbrock carbs (some do though). My brother has one on his 350 engine. I'm not imprssed with the performance of it at all. I've had a number of Holley double pumper cabs (the 4150's). they're simple, and perform well when tuned correctly.
 
I'll be different in my advice....
Being a cheaper bastid, I suggest you go for the low dollar things first. Tune-up if not done. Presuming you are not revving over 5500 anyway, HEIs are a good distributor, use it for now. Pull the distributor and have the local pro-shop curve it for you with new springs for the weights. Put an upgraded coil on it and install it with about 12-14 degrees initial timing to start with shoot for a 36 degree total - if you know timing setting, dial in the timing. For less than $150, tune what you have, get the most out of it before throwing more parts at it....unless you have money burning a hole in your pocket (ya, we have all done that at one time or another.... send some to me! lol)

If you still need more performance then get gears/posi. The carb and intake you have may not be top drawer performers, but will do well enough until you are ready to spend the coin, IMHO.

And welcome to Team Chevelle -the best site on the net!! :waving:
 
Rather than just throwing out random part numbers into a vacuum of information, attack it in a logical and orderly manner.

What does the car do now that you don't like? what would you like more/less of? What are you willing to give up to get it? In a word, what is the real purpose of the car, to you?

It's true, in general, that a higher-ratio gear will make a car accelerate off a stop quicker. It's also true that you can get more upper-RPM power out of some engines with a different intake, but only if the rest of the engine is set up for it. "Mild cam" and ".040" over pistons" sounds to me like a "rebuilder special"; probably has 76cc heads on it too, such as 882 or 624 or 993. That's not a high-RPM setup no matter what valves somebody stuck in them. If you go too far with the gear, you'll end up with one of those wonders you often see that can set the right rear tire on fire sitting still, but can't pass a semi on a 2-lane country road.

Before "assuming" that the heads are 64cc, check the casting number. It tells the truth. Previous owners often don't. Hopefully they are in fact something good; but check to make sure.

With typical "rebuilder" flat-top pistons (5cc valve reliefs, .045" down in the hole at TDC), 76cc heads, and .039" head gaskets, your CR will be around 8.4:1. Not a recipe for a street terror. With 64cc heads it'll be around 9.4:1, a whole lot better but still barely at the entry-level.

Find out FOR SURE what you've got, and then you'll be able to target whatever deficiencies it has, without wasting money on stuff that doesn't do any good.

Count me in the anti-Edelbrock camp, as far as their carbs. Their heads and intakes are decent enough, given the right application; but their cams are total duds for most uses, and their carbs (Carter AVS) are made to be easy to slap on and drive, not produce best results. But again, if that's not the engine's biggest weakness, don't spend your money there just yet. The way to go faster, economically efficiently, is to identify the one thing that is its lowest limit to whatever your goal is; and fix that with a sensible, compatible upgrade, that will play nice in the same sandbox with whatever else you have. It is NOT to unbolt and re-bolt all the big shiny stuff that sits up on top out in the open, just so you have something that sparkles; it is NOT "so-and-so has a such-and-such and his car is fast, so I gotta get one of those"; it's usually something non-glamorous, and often invisible, like a torque converter or gears. But even those, you need to take into account what you're using it with, and pick wisely. The trick is to get the combo right. And as pointed out repeatedly, just a nice parts list won't necessarily make it run its best. TUNING is everything.
 
Discussion starter · #13 ·
Thanks again to all for the various opinions.

As I stated in the initial and subsequent post. What was listed is exactly what I have. Other than the cam, it is definitely there. I just had the heads put on due to the others having about 1/8" play due to the guides being worn. I was running on 5 cylinders when I got it.

The rest is verified. I want the car as a stop light to stop light demon....no it is not there and a 396 or 454 would be much better...but this is what she has now and for the forseeable future. so i have to make do.

I have visited Summit. Jegs and a host of other sites...all have cool gadgets and gizmos...but I want to get the most bang for the buck as well as quality equipment.

I have no problem paying a little more now rather than having to tear it down later and fix it. It has been year since I have had an engine I can tinker with...what with all the computer stuff and all.

Mild cam is all I can give you for now...it has a slight lope in the idle but nothing rough.

When you suggest carbs...which is better...spread or square bore...again I am looking for a speedy stop light to stop liight car....won't be running on the track...just thing 1/8 to 1/4 mile speed.

Thanks again.
Scott:p
 
What heads are they, actually? (Casting # if stock, or mfr & part # if aftermarket)

What does the car do now that you want more/less of? Does it leave hard then peter out, is it gutless down low but then comes on hard above 4000 RPM, run great but drink gas like no tomorrow or vice-versa, things like that.

What are you willing to sacrifice to get what you want (besides obviously, some amount of money)? Gas mileage? Cold weather driveability? Close-the-hood-and-forget-about-it reliability? Air conditioning? Does your wife drive the car, and if so, how much "race car" behavior can she deal with? How many miles do you think you'll put on it? (daily driver, second car, weekend cruiser only, nothing but car shows, etc.)

I detect that you aren't the one working on this car, even just the super easy stuff that some of us might do during commercial breaks of a race or a game (like, "... had the heads put on... " for example). That DRAMATICALLY affects what level of maintenance it can be provided, how much tuning it is likely to ever get, etc. Is this true?

Everybody here can tell you all about what cam or carb or whatever they like, how great their gears are, etc. etc. etc., but without understanding you a little better, it's all a bunch of drivel, and may not apply to you at all.

Between square-bore and spreadbore carbs, there's no "better"; rather, it's all about suitability for a purpose. Generally, a square-bore carb is used when max performance is the overriding goal, and a spreadbore is used when a tiny amount of that can be given up in exchange for better street manners (gas mileage, cold-weather tolerance, cruising manners, low-speed driveability). But that's only very general and is not intended to be definitive, as it's possible to make a square carb that has pretty decent those other things, or a spreadbore that doesn't not lose too much performance.

The more you can tell us honestly and in detail, the more likely it is that you'll get good solid answers that really apply to YOU and can help YOU do the right thing that will make YOU happy with your car, and not just a bunch of running off at the mouth about parts we like.
 
I would suggest an edelbrock rpm intake and a 650 holley double pumper or 670 street avenger. You need to figure out what the cam specs really are. Then get the appropriate torque converter and rear gear ratio. You have to think of the whole thing of a package that compliments each other. The changes I mentioned above when coupled with a milder cam, a 2,800-3,000 stall converter, and a 3.55 to a 3.73 gear will give you a pretty peppy ride from stoplight to stoplight.
 
Discussion starter · #16 ·
Ok. Here is more info on me. I had someone else do the heads due to time constraints and wanting to get the car rolling0...also to get another set of eyes on it to see if I missed something...the heads were from casting #416 or 434. Got them from J&S off the web, with a little research thrown in. These also included aluminum 1.6 roller rockers. Yes I know they are reworked heads.


  • Heads are thoroughly cleaned and inspected

  • Pressure tested to ensure no cracks or leaks

  • Machined with 16 BRONZE THICK WALL GUIDES, not the flimsy guide liners

  • 3 ANGLE Valve job / Pocket Ported under valve seats

  • CBN milled to ensure straightness within .0015" and correct finish

  • All machine work performed on the latest state of the art equipment

  • Heads are assembled with new stainless 2.02 swirl polished intake valves

  • Heads are assembled with new stainless 1.60 swirl polished exhaust valves

  • Heads are machined with new hardened exhaust seats for unleaded fuel

  • Heads are assembled with hardened valve keepers

  • Heads are assembled with new .550 lift valve springs

  • Heads are assembled with new valve seals

  • Heads are complete and ready to install



The car is great on topend, it seems to come alive later in the powerband, I couldn't give you an rpm, because I have no tach, but I would guess it is about 3000 to 4000.

As soon as i open the engine up I will get a dial indicator on the cam to get more info.

From take off she is slow. Like she has a slow time winding up. Very little tire squeal and no, I do not have posi. I may have an issue with my kickdown cable, I am looking into that. The wife will not drive it, just me, weekend driving. Going for full restoration, not original, but neat and appealing.

I will be doing the majority of the wrenching my self. I needed an unbias look at it originally to make sure that I was getting what was being sold, I have only had the car for a month or so....

I still would like to know why Edelbrock carbs aren't so good and what make Holley or Demon better. I am interested in the real life experiences you all have had to avoid in my dealings.

Thank you.
Scott:sad:
 
416 and 434 are both 305 heads. The 434 was used on the super low-perf 305 2-bbl (like my 78 El Camino) and was also used on 267s in the late 70s/early 80s. 416 was used on most of the early-mid 80s 305s, including the LG4 and L69 in the F bodies, up until the center valve cover bolt system was introduced in 87. 601 is another common "better" 305 casting from the early 80s especially in truck appllications. None of these is worth a crap as they come, but when I say "better", I mean they're the ones with the most potential. Some people claim that fully-ported 416s can flow nearly the same as double-humps with the same work done to them. I don't know about that myself, but that's what some people with flow benches will say, FWIW.

This is why casting #s are important.... those castings were BOTH 58cc nominal, as-cast. Not 64cc. Although, the chamber is SO small, that even with the valves that came in them stock (1.84" / 1.5"), the edge of the valve is right up against the "vertical" wall of the chamber. Even if 1.94" intakes are put into them, in order for the increase in valve size to make any difference, you have to lay the chamber wall back so far that the chamber volume ends up 61-62c by the time you open it up far enough for the larger valves to INCREASE flow, instead of DECREASING it. (Think about it... doesn't matter how big the valve is, if the edge of the valve is RIGHT NEXT TO a wall.) This is how the good heads are, anyway; couldn't say about 434 casting, I stick with the better ones, so I've never worked up any of those.

But all that aside, sounds like a typical moderate street build, so that's a good direction to go in. I'd suggest a modern cam such as the Comp XE262 or the Lunati Voodoo of about the same size. That should match the rest of the motor fairly well. The Eddy RPM intake would be a great choice for that. I agree with the Holley 650 DP carb recommendation; either a square or spreadbore (the 6210 is the spreadbore kind). Although, in terms of bang for the buck, I'd put that last on the priority list unless your current carb is broken somehow. For gears, you probably have 3.08 now, that being by far the most common. 3.31, 3.42, or 3.55 or 3.73 would be the best choices, depending on how much you expect to drive it on the highway. For a converter, you want your stall speed to be below the RPM you drive around all the time at, but hopefully near the peak torque RPM of the motor; so with 3.31 you'll probably want about a 2400 stall, up to about a 2800 with 3.73s. I would STRONGLY urge you NOT to spend a dime on your existing 10-bolt. Instead, get a 12-bolt, and do your posi and gears in that. Otherwise, you spend EXACTLY the same amount of money, but you still have .... just a 10-bolt.
 
I concur with RB69SS396Conv & 69bu. :hurray: The engine is just a big air pump. What you put on it determines what your looking for. Comp. Ratio, intake, carb, heads, cam, exhaust, torque conv. & gears all make the ingredients for power & driveability & of course the wallet determines this too. You asked again to about the Performer carb. I've personally had them in the past and to me they just ran out of air and I didn't care about the tuning. Holly's are good too, but I always seemed to have float and needle and seats issues with them (flooding & hanging up). The Demon for me, seem to be the perfect match for my engine and I put in on right out of the box with no tuning or jet changes & that was 7 or 8 years ago without a single problem, weather street or track. Mostly it's just a personal choice. That's why we have so many of them to choose from. Good luck with the '72 & as you can see I'm partial to this year and welcome to the TEAM!!!:thumbsup:
 
For a converter, you want your stall speed to be below the RPM you drive around all the time at,.
I don't agree with this^ and I believe it to be a common misconception for street driven applications. I had one car for over 3 years and put 55,000 miles on it in that timespan. it was my daily driver which I also drove to work and back 5-7 days out of every week, 12 months out of the year. In the winter time I put snow tires on it too.

This daily driver I spoke of turned 12.0 ET's and it was strictly a pump gas engine under the hood. i had a stall speed of 3,000 RPM and around town a typically cruised around at 2,200-2,400 RPM, and I never had any problems. The thing about stall speed vs. cruise RPM that many guys overlook is that your torque converter will only flash to the max stall speed during full throttle when the full torque of the engine is applied to the drive train. And when you're cruising around town, the full torque of the engine will NOT be applied to the drive train. therefore, under those part throttle inputs, your torque converter will NOT be flashing to anywhere near your full stall speed. ;)

However, you also need to keep in mind that very high stall speeds (4,000+RPM) can create more heat that can also be transfered to the transmission and in some applications that can spell reduced transmission longevity. Some guys get around that potential problem by installing very efficient transmission coolers. But for me, I try to keep my street driven cars using stall speeds of 3,500 RPM or less.

About the gears in the rear, you need to know what you currently have, and that's very easy to find out by chocking up the front tires, getting the rear of the car on jack stands, and slipping the shifter in neutral. You then put some white paint or chalk on the drive shaft, and turn the drive wheel one full turn while counting how many revolutions the drive shaft goes through. For instance, 3.5 turns of the drive shaft to every one turn of the wheel would indicate 3.55 gears. A hair over 4 turns would indicate 4.11 gears.

It's important that you know what rear gear ratio you have in there now, because a Small gear ratio change wouldn't even make any noticeable difference in acceleration, and it would therefore be a waste of effort. if you have 3.08 gears, there's no sense going to 3.31's, and if you have 3.31's, there's no sense going to 3.55's. Small gear changes like that aren't going to make much difference in acceleration times (0-60MPH). Particularly in a heavy street car (over 3,200 LBS).

One other thing : if you're going to change the rear gear ratio and you've never done it before, you better do your homework and get the procedure down correctly. If you fail to set-up the ring & pinion gears correctly with the proper amount of backlash,pinion depth, pinion gear pre-load and gear pattern using the marking compound to check it, then there can potentially be catastrophic results when driving down the highway! So if you aren't going to do your homework on that, then leave it to the professionals to do it for you.

BTW, the reason why I suggested a 600 CFM carb if you do decide to get a Holley, is that's usually all that's needed for a street car with a 350cid engine if the redline is no higher than 6,000 RPM. But that depends on the cam you're using too. A lot of guys tend to over-carb their street cars, and performance can suffer as a result. The maximum CFM of air that a 350CID engine can move at 6,000 RPM is 605 if it's naturally aspirated.
 
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