[Dan72]

Rob, just a small correction to your terminology. I know what you mean, it just may make it easier in the future.


0.187" is inches. In thousandth of an inch its "one hundred and eighty seven thousands of an inch"

If you say .187 thou you are really saying 187 microinches, or 0.000187"



Oh, and I think Brian was talking to you, not me, when he said don't weld.


In general:
I don't recall Rob even saying he was trying to do a 100% resto! Brian is 100% right, why allow body filler and modern paint chemistries and not allow bonding? Why allow radial tires, unleaded gasoline, and metallic brake pads and not allow bonding?

100% correct resto is something completely different, and in 99.99% of cases is impractical. How many 1000 pt cars have you ever heard of? If that is the goal then fine. Even so I would be tempted to use modern materials if they couldn't be seen (ie, epoxy primer, synthetic oil, and maybe even in certain areas panel bonding!!!).

In resto's I am more interested in the spirit of the endeavor, that is, bringing a classic back to life, than arguing semantics. Even if it is original in appearance and function, with increased longevity, I'm happy. I realize some people want to try and make a car EXACTLY like it was back then, and that's your business.

Whatever, I'm going home now.

 

[Dan72]

I can see in twenty years, you will never learn.. Hey, if you dont like what I said then don't ask....

Oh, and one more thing:


MARTINSR has forgotten more about doing bodywork the proper way than most people, even people in the trade, will ever learn. Why else would his opinion be respected on forums all over the internet? And I've always seen him disclaim opinions as such when posting one as opposed to fact. Even people that have "been doing bodywork a long time" should never consider themselves as being finished with learning, and should be open to learning from other experts.

 

[rubadub]

Some of us like myself don't have all the tools or knowledge to do a concours restoration, a lot of us only want to fix our cars or make them better. Anytime you mix in amatuers like myself in with professionals you can get a lot of different opinions.

I am however intelligent enough to know that I can and have gotten answers to my questions on this site. It isn't my intention to cause frustration, just remember some of us are here to learn, and If we don't ask questions or work in a body shop it's all trial and error. With the price of material, no body shop discount, that error can be very expensive.

Alot of us work alone and can't ask a coworker how he would do something.

But with all the people on this site, we can walk out of our garages and ask somebody on here.

To be able to use this forum is a privledge that I don't want to lose, so I will roll with the punches.

One more thing

When we get these cars done, and if they look good, you professionals should be just as proud of these cars as we are, because you were also a big part of it.

Rob

 

[sob]

WoW what a thread!I like debate,especially with alot of information.On one of my first posts I guess I should have said as far as (I) stand "the jury is still out " as far as panal adhesives go,might of save a lot of scruntney.But Im glad as I acquired a lot of information.And I thank Dan72 and technova for that though am still going to "watch"for awhile.back to welding up 1/8 inch screw holes which will take one stitch weld,I believe it would get no hotter then using (strsw)when cooled right away with air from a airhose and would probaby heat up the same total area as the(strsw),its not like he is continuous welding the lap joint he just glued,just wanted to clarify that.

and on another note the last time I flew I looked out and there seemed to be some rivets holding them there wings together,nothing like looking out of an airplane at 8000 ft and seeing fasteners . when I helped build some of boeings stuff in one of there plants they had these big ovens called autoclaves that they "melted" plane parts together , the ovens were big enough to fit half a fuselage lodge ,dont know the whole process though its (top secret)LOL thanks again for the info guys and remember

 

[rubadub]

Darryl


Thats quite a fleet of cars you have there, any pictures to share with us.

Rob

 

[72chevelleconv]

Ok Brian, ask Mike what he would do.......... (EDIT) (sorry I did some re reading and saw you said the same thing I am saying now.. BTW GOOD advice!)
Last time I checked........... This guy asked this forum for advice.............. I said in the above post, people loosely "restore their cars" Oh and it is a 100 point show car. Their is more then one way to do it. I use better paint and wheels and chassies components. but the way to patch a hole is with steel and welds. PEROID. You want to seam seal between the spot welds of two pnls, Cool that is a great repair. Oh and one more thing, I just started to re read this post just to brush up. look at brians first post to U........ looks like the same thing I said..

"I am sorry, I disagree. If you weld that hole with ANY kind of penatration the adhesive within a half inch of it is TOAST. Heat is "Kripton" to these adhesives.

If you are trying to bond a line that is then going to be seen like a seam from quarter to roof, I say you should be welding it anyway.

Why would you need to cover up the bonded seam, it is usually used on a pinch weld or something like that where it will not need screws."

Brian
__________________
Brian Martin

 

[Johnny B.]

In 2003 we bonded both lower quarter patch panels on my 69. We also bonded
a small patch on the right rear wheel well. You could hook a come-a-long to
these panels and I think the whole car would move before the panel would
separate.

I made the choice to keep ALL the original metal on my Chevelle, and 3 small
patch panels seemed a lot better than going to full replacement quarters made
somewhere in China.

We have come a long way in 30 years in terms of bonding agents.

 

[Gambi69]

Johnny,
Can you share what adhesive you used, and where you can get it? I would also be interested in hearing how you went about applying it?
I am considering similar repairs to my 69.
Thanks!
-Gambi69

 

[JWagner]

I think that this has been a fairly informative thread regarding a useful product. I remember one of the panel adhesive company's web sites showing crashed cars that had bonded panels and the looked pretty good. As was pointed out, the bonded boats and aircraft structures can take a real pounding without failure. I suppose that the real challenge for us is to properyl clean the metal and then figure out how to clamp the joint. Years ago (in the 60's) I had a friend whose dad owned a body shop which used some self tapping screws that had conical heads to fit into a countersunk hole . These were used to attach panels without welding (no mig then) and then the heads were ground off flush with the panel. Sound brutal, but maybe something like this would be good for clamping a bonded panel while the adhesive cures. Is this type of screw still around?
As for what a factory does, it must always be fast and robust. They do not have the time to let an adhesive cure. I remember seeing lead applied to joints in car plants and it was done because it was really fast.

 

[timinseattle]

with butt welding the panels together you won't have to worry about hiding a HUGE flange joint where the panels have been glued, imo it LOOKS way more professional to weld it

 

[hrd]

i just know that when i was shopping for a steel cowl induction blister the one company i could find http://www.thespeedcenter.net/SpeedCenterHomeFrameSet.htm recommended only using fusor metal bond and when i checked the fusor site they showed an independant study that showed in a collision (for whatever thats worth, i would guess in a collision your metal bond is probably the least of your worries) that bonding is stronger than welding

 

[72silver4u]

Well I guess I'm about to get burned, but in my opinion, bonding is here to stay and is a very good and logical choice in many applications. Everyone will have their own opinions, whether it be which brand of adhesive to use or not to use it at all and I respect them all for their reasons. If you want your car to be 100% as it came out of the factory, then 1 group is right in not using panel bonding. However, the vast majority of people that want to revive their classic car (using revive instead of restore here for a reason) don't need or necessarily care if it is exactly as it was when it came off the assembly line, they want it to look and function as good or probably better then when it came off the line. What bolts do you have in your rebuilt engine? Are you using some NIB rod bolts you found in the back of a warehouse from 1968, made out of inferior steel, or are you using modern day ARP bolts? If the product comes out better or of equal quality with the same or less amount of work or money, then why not use it? Just because a product isn't going to work well in your particular situation, does that mean it's a junk product for everyone?

Now that I've given that portion of my opinion, I'm on to the real ass-burner portion, would I use panel bond on my own car? The answer is yes and no. I will be welding my 1/2 section quarter panels on, but not because i don't have the trust in today's modern adhesives. I love the idea of gluing a panel on, and never having to worry about moisture getting through a pinhole in my weld, or worrying about warping my panel so badly I will be spending the next 3 months of my life smoothing out a quarter panel. I will be welding my quarter panel simply because I have the equipment and it will be cheaper for me. I will be panel bonding my door skin since I can take it to the shop I work at and use the existing equipment. We have glued quarter panels on several "paint job" classic cars at work, and one full restoration on my boss's 1968 Charger. All have turned out great, and I have no doubt they will be looking great in 20 years. The adhesives themselves are proven technology whether anyone will admit it or not. Manufacturers are not putting a lifetime guarantee on a product that can cause thousands of dollars of material and labor damage if they fail and millions in personal injury lawsuits if they haven't done some pretty incredible research. My opinion is the product is proven, it will be the prep work and the usage by the bodyman that will dictate the reliability of the product.

Oh, and a few FYIs - I do work at a reputable body shop as a full time tech, I went to body school, and in both places they preach panel bonding. Welding seams if fast becoming dead practice in modern day body work, more so in collision. We use U-POL brand panel bond, and have had better results with this than any other, including Fusor products which I thought were junk compared to UPOL. On your panel bonding seams, you should always use a long strand fiberglass filler over your seam. Without this base of fiberglass filler, your seam can and will show through over time due to expansion/contraction. A rep we know said Fibral brand is the endorsed brand. So far even in high body twist situation, we have had no failures. After all, my boss's 68' charger has slicks, a supercharged 440 putting out about 750hp, a unibody, and an owner with a love of doing wheelies. Personally, I should think that would be about as stressed as a seam can get without a collision.

 

[rubadub]

72Silver4U, that was a good explanation, just a couple things I would like to add.

I'm just a hobbist, and what I know is what I have read on this forum, the camaro and hot rod forum. Each forum has several experts and professional body men, and hobbist's. I have learned from all of them.

I'm retired and have had the luxury to visit these three sites, probably three to ten hours, practically every day.

I also have three different body men that I can call, or have come over and help me,or teach me how to do things.

To say these sites are educational, is an understatement.

Your comments I don't agree with.

100% like the factory by welding, I don't think so unless you have the big long armed factory spotwelder. You can panel bond something, then dimple it to look like a factory spotweld.

you mentioned a pinhole, and moisture getting through, this is true, but any place you weld, pinhole or not, it will rust, a lot quicker then the panel bond, even with the 3m sprayed on it first.

You also mentioned long strand fiberglass, it's pretty much common knowledge, on these three sites that duraglas is the number one product, which should be put on over some type of epoxy. There is no filler that is moisture proof, duraglas is also the best in this respect.

You are a professional body man, I couldn't hold a job in a professional shop, I don't know enough, plus I'm old and way to slow. Bodywork is what I like to do, and when you can read about something that you really enjoy, then a lot of retention goes with it.

I'm trying to make a perfect car, probably impossible, but I intend to be real close, so I am reading everything I can to make it happen.

If it wasn't for professionals like you, us amateurs would spend a lot more time reworking stuff, then we do right now, plus the money you guys have saved us.

Sometimes I'm not real good with words, but I like to tell it like it is.
I have a lot of respect for your professional opinion, and I hope you will respect mine.

Rob

 

[MARTINSR]

I really think this whole thread needs to be read again...slowly by anyone before any more posts. There is a lot of very good info, and a heck of a lot left out.

The subject is one that can be studied a lot more, but this thread kinda took a turn into the crapper, it should die.

Brian

 

[Andy69]

I really think this whole thread needs to be read again...slowly by anyone before any more posts. There is a lot of very good info, and a heck of a lot left out.

The subject is one that can be studied a lot more, but this thread kinda took a turn into the crapper, it should die.

Brian

I found some intriguing info up there. I must admit, being a relative amateur in bodywork, and with much of my knowledge being 20+ years old, that I don't know too much about modern methods, including panel bonding. It sounds like a viable alternative for those of us who either don't know how to weld, don't do it very well, or don't have the equipment or the desire to buy equipment that will only be used a few times.

Many here including me respect your opinion, Brian. I'd be interested to know your take on panel bonding and how it compares to the more traditional approach.

Cheers,
andy

 

[rubadub]

Brian, I started this thread initially, and your statement after my last remarks, this thread should die, it looks like it's going to the crapper.

You are one of the most respected experts, you frequent a lot of forums, and you have a large following.

I know you work a full time job, and a lot of us look up to you, and realize that you are taking your free time to put out all this good information.

If this forum didn't have any beginners, and only had experts, in a short order of time, somebody would tell you the same thing you just told me.

I know I like to be able to say things on here, it's a way of sharing words about my hobby.

Who made you the forum king, that only what you approve of should continue, this subject has to many mistakes, We little five year olds are out in the old mans garage, and we want to be able to do something to.

If were wrong, correct us, but let us be a part of it.

Somebody on here has this saying, it's something like this.

Experts built the titanic, amatuers built the ark.

Rob

 

[Dave Birdwell]

Long and short of it, panel bonding is here to stay. It's funny, cobra2411 says that panel bonding is never going to be found on his cars. Chances are his daily driver is glued SOMEWHERE. Anyone who drives a 1999 or newer GM truck has glued on door skins. Several GM cars have glued doors. Even more amazing is how much RUST is already in the crimp of the bottom of a two year old car. I just glued on a bedside of a new GM truck today. I used mig plug welds at the front and rear of the bed, as you have to drill out the old welds. There is a dark blue LS6 running around somewhere in the northeast that has the quarter panels glued around the outer wheel houses. That car will never rust in the wheel lip ever again. Panel bonding has its place, and having the experience and knowledge to know where and when to glue is the key.
To answer the initial question, NO, do not weld the screw holes shut. The glue will contaminate the weld, and you'll end up with more of a mess than just putting a bit more glue in the holes.

 

[rubadub]

Dave

I have a lot of screw holes in the trunk pans I glued in, so I guess if I put a piece of masking tape on the bottom of the holes, then just put glue in them.

I have heard or read someplace, that either paint or filler won't stick to the glue, anything on this.

Thanks

Rob

 

[MARTINSR]

Rob, I am not more "King of the Forums" than anyone who would say the tread is "the best ever". I just see too much bickering and saw it headed down that road again. There is some GREAT info here, I agree, and my comment was in haste. You made some great points as well, it just seemed that 72silver4u's comments were so level headed and right on, no debate was necessary. Forgive me if I was/am out of line with my comments.

You are right, for some reason the adhesive shouldn't be painted over. At least that is what the brands I use say. I seem to remember comments by Barry (owner of SPI) that applying the epoxy over it as you mentioned as well would seal it off and polyester filler could be applied over it. By the way, look for the likes of Evercoats "Fibertech" filler to be a stand out in this catagory. It appears to be the next generation in reinforced filler (it uses carbon fiber).

Andy, adhesives are a great way to replace welding in many projects. First off, in some cases it is the BEST way to do it. In other cases it is the "bestest" way to do it. For example, outside of the originallity factor, bonding the wheel well on a quarter to the outer wheel house is in my opinion the BEST way to attach it. If done properly, it is the best corrosion protection we can provide outside the factory. Many new cars in fact are glued there, they just spot weld THRU the glue (or foam in some cases). The adhesive is designed to work that way as is the welding method. Mig welding thru the adhesive will destroy the adhesive for quite a distance if heated too much, AND as Dave so wisely brought up, it will contaminant the molten metal of the weld.

On splicing an "open seam" like on the top of a patch panel where filler will need to be used to smooth out the the seam and be painted over, it is NOT the "best" way. But it may be the "BESTEST" way for a particular application. You may have heard me use this term. It is my term for the "best" application of a product or procedure for a person lacking in skills, tools, money, or time to do it "right". It isn't "bad" he isn't a "bad" person or "hack", it is the "bestest" way for him to repair his car or truck and get it back on the road where it can haul him and his family around or make money (as in a work truck) OR put his smiling face behind the wheel of his Hot Rod or "restored" Camaro.
Now, there is a "right" way and a "Wrong" way to do the "Bestest" way as well, but if done right, it is the "Best" way for a particular person or project.

I LOVE these adhesives, and I think there are plenty of places they can be used in custom body work, and certainly in home garages. But they are NOT only a "bestest" way to do it as I point out in the wheel well example. Door skins, places close to componants that may be damaged by heat from welding. Where you want maximum corrosion protection.

They ARE proven, that has been established. But how about this for proven, BMW has a repair bulletin for splicing the frame rail in a 2005 5 series where you GLUE the frame rail back togther with your new piece using ONLY adhesive!! This is where the bumper mounts, radiator hangs on, etc. We are talking the front frame "horn", glued on!

Here is a bulletin from GM on repairing a rusted roof section on a S-10/Jimmy.

Brian

Oh yeah, and Rob, "Experts built the titanic, amatuers built the ark." This may be true, but the Titanic was sailed by a fool and the construction of the Ark was overseen by the creator of the universe.