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snydes

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
I'm doing some experimenting with the timing on my car, my mechanical advance comes in early, like at 2200-2300 RPM, I'm told 2800-3000 RPM would be closer to ideal for my set-up. I am using a stock Delco distributor, I have a few sets of springs, but the ones that are supposed to give me the advance RPM I want are still not stiff enough. I didn't see any kits with more than 3 sets of springs which is what I already have, can anyone recommend a certain kit, or should I go to something like one of the Moroso kits that include new advance weights and start over (currently running stock weights)?

Thanks,
Steve
 
Here is a cut and paste from Team Camaro and thier resident Engineer.


TIMING AND VACUUM ADVANCE 101

John Hinckley


The most important concept to understand is that lean mixtures, such as at idle and steady highway cruise, take longer to burn than rich mixtures; idle in particular, as idle mixture is affected by exhaust gas dilution. This requires that lean mixtures have "the fire lit" earlier in the compression cycle (spark timing advanced), allowing more burn time so that peak cylinder pressure is reached just after TDC for peak efficiency and reduced exhaust gas temperature (wasted combustion energy). Rich mixtures, on the other hand, burn faster than lean mixtures, so they need to have "the fire lit" later in the compression cycle (spark timing retarded slightly) so maximum cylinder pressure is still achieved at the same point after TDC as with the lean mixture, for maximum efficiency.

The centrifugal advance system in a distributor advances spark timing purely as a function of engine rpm (irrespective of engine load or operating conditions), with the amount of advance and the rate at which it comes in determined by the weights and springs on top of the autocam mechanism. The amount of advance added by the distributor, combined with initial static timing, is "total timing" (i.e., the 34-36 degrees at high rpm that most SBC's like). Vacuum advance has absolutely nothing to do with total timing or performance, as when the throttle is opened, manifold vacuum drops essentially to zero, and the vacuum advance drops out entirely; it has no part in the "total timing" equation.

At idle, the engine needs additional spark advance in order to fire that lean, diluted mixture earlier in order to develop maximum cylinder pressure at the proper point, so the vacuum advance can (connected to manifold vacuum, not "ported" vacuum - more on that aberration later) is activated by the high manifold vacuum, and adds about 15 degrees of spark advance, on top of the initial static timing setting (i.e., if your static timing is at 10 degrees, at idle it's actually around 25 degrees with the vacuum advance connected). The same thing occurs at steady-state highway cruise; the mixture is lean, takes longer to burn, the load on the engine is low, the manifold vacuum is high, so the vacuum advance is again deployed, and if you had a timing light set up so you could see the balancer as you were going down the highway, you'd see about 50 degrees advance (10 degrees initial, 20-25 degrees from the centrifugal advance, and 15 degrees from the vacuum advance) at steady-state cruise (it only takes about 40 horsepower to cruise at 50mph).

When you accelerate, the mixture is instantly enriched (by the accelerator pump, power valve, etc.), burns faster, doesn't need the additional spark advance, and when the throttle plates open, manifold vacuum drops, and the vacuum advance can returns to zero, retarding the spark timing back to what is provided by the initial static timing plus the centrifugal advance provided by the distributor at that engine rpm; the vacuum advance doesn't come back into play until you back off the gas and manifold vacuum increases again as you return to steady-state cruise, when the mixture again becomes lean.

The key difference is that centrifugal advance (in the distributor autocam via weights and springs) is purely rpm-sensitive; nothing changes it except changes in rpm. Vacuum advance, on the other hand, responds to engine load and rapidly-changing operating conditions, providing the correct degree of spark advance at any point in time based on engine load, to deal with both lean and rich mixture conditions. By today's terms, this was a relatively crude mechanical system, but it did a good job of optimizing engine efficiency, throttle response, fuel economy, and idle cooling, with absolutely ZERO effect on wide-open throttle performance, as vacuum advance is inoperative under wide-open throttle conditions. In modern cars with computerized engine controllers, all those sensors and the controller change both mixture and spark timing 50 to 100 times per second, and we don't even HAVE a distributor any more - it's all electronic.

Now, to the widely-misunderstood manifold-vs.-ported vacuum aberration. After 30-40 years of controlling vacuum advance with full manifold vacuum, along came emissions requirements, years before catalytic converter technology had been developed, and all manner of crude band-aid systems were developed to try and reduce hydrocarbons and oxides of nitrogen in the exhaust stream. One of these band-aids was "ported spark", which moved the vacuum pickup orifice in the carburetor venturi from below the throttle plate (where it was exposed to full manifold vacuum at idle) to above the throttle plate, where it saw no manifold vacuum at all at idle. This meant the vacuum advance was inoperative at idle (retarding spark timing from its optimum value), and these applications also had VERY low initial static timing (usually 4 degrees or less, and some actually were set at 2 degrees AFTER TDC). This was done in order to increase exhaust gas temperature (due to "lighting the fire late") to improve the effectiveness of the "afterburning" of hydrocarbons by the air injected into the exhaust manifolds by the A.I.R. system; as a result, these engines ran like crap, and an enormous amount of wasted heat energy was transferred through the exhaust port walls into the coolant, causing them to run hot at idle - cylinder pressure fell off, engine temperatures went up, combustion efficiency went down the drain, and fuel economy went down with it.

If you look at the centrifugal advance calibrations for these "ported spark, late-timed" engines, you'll see that instead of having 20 degrees of advance, they had up to 34 degrees of advance in the distributor, in order to get back to the 34-36 degrees "total timing" at high rpm wide-open throttle to get some of the performance back. The vacuum advance still worked at steady-state highway cruise (lean mixture = low emissions), but it was inoperative at idle, which caused all manner of problems - "ported vacuum" was strictly an early, pre-converter crude emissions strategy, and nothing more.

What about the Harry high-school non-vacuum advance polished billet "whizbang" distributors you see in the Summit and Jeg's catalogs? They're JUNK on a street-driven car, but some people keep buying them because they're "race car" parts, so they must be "good for my car" - they're NOT. "Race cars" run at wide-open throttle, rich mixture, full load, and high rpm all the time, so they don't need a system (vacuum advance) to deal with the full range of driving conditions encountered in street operation. Anyone driving a street-driven car without manifold-connected vacuum advance is sacrificing idle cooling, throttle response, engine efficiency, and fuel economy, probably because they don't understand what vacuum advance is, how it works, and what it's for - there are lots of long-time experienced "mechanics" who don't understand the principles and operation of vacuum advance either, so they're not alone.

Vacuum advance calibrations are different between stock engines and modified engines, especially if you have a lot of cam and have relatively low manifold vacuum at idle. Most stock vacuum advance cans aren’t fully-deployed until they see about 15” Hg. Manifold vacuum, so those cans don’t work very well on a modified engine; with less than 15” Hg. at a rough idle, the stock can will “dither” in and out in response to the rapidly-changing manifold vacuum, constantly varying the amount of vacuum advance, which creates an unstable idle. Modified engines with more cam that generate less than 15” Hg. of vacuum at idle need a vacuum advance can that’s fully-deployed at least 1”, preferably 2” of vacuum less than idle vacuum level so idle advance is solid and stable; the Echlin #VC-1810 advance can (about $10 at NAPA) provides the same amount of advance as the stock can (15 degrees), but is fully-deployed at only 8” of vacuum, so there is no variation in idle timing even with a stout cam.

For peak engine performance, driveability, idle cooling and efficiency in a street-driven car, you need vacuum advance, connected to full manifold vacuum. Absolutely. Positively. Don't ask Summit or Jeg's about it – they don’t understand it, they're on commission, and they want to sell "race car" parts.



__________________
JohnZ
CRG
 
Discussion starter · #3 ·
John is a very knowledgeable guy, I follow a lot of his posts, and that is a great one. Thanks for the cut and paste!

Anybody have any suggestion on the advance springs??

Thanks,
Steve
 
You could pick up an MSD set at your local speed shop. this will give you 4 different sets of springs which will give you eight different combinations of spring tension. Chances are your bushings are toast if you haven't already changed them out, if your not getting the prescribed mechanical curve with the correct spring.
 
Discussion starter · #5 ·
Any chance you have that part number handy?? I'd have do double check the bushings to be sure, but this distributor doesn't have many miles since it has been gone over, I'd be surprised if they are shot, but I'll check them out.
 
I will definately be paying attention to this post, and going back to it when I get ready to do all the advanced tuning to my stock "smog" distributor. I have done absolutely nothing to it at all except connect to manifold vacuum.
 
Are your sure that you're reving it high enough for all the advance to be in? Typically, the lightest springs allow total 2200-2500, heaviest somewhere past 4,000, and medium around 3500. All of them will start advancing way before that but any but the lightest shouldn't allow total much below 3K. As far as what's "ideal", that depends on a lot of factors (car weight, gearing, torque curve, cr, etc.). The goal is to get total in as soon as possible without causing any pinging. If you're having problems with pinging then delaying your total will probably help but if not it will more likely hurt performance.
 
Discussion starter · #9 ·
I'm 99.9% sure it's all in by when I stated, with the kit I have currently, the strongest set of springs is supposed to have it all in by 3200, but I'm seeing it all in by like 2300. I will double check it however. Yes, I am having some issues with pinging with the vac. adv. hooked up, nothing without, which is why I'm looking to adjust the mech. adv. for a test.
 
Then the problem is with the vacuum advance rate, not with the mechanical. Get an adjustable vacuum can and dial it in to suit your particular application. Assuming that you want best performance and drivavbility, optimize your mechanical without vacuum advance and then work on the vacuum advance.
 
Since it seems the vac adv is the only thing making it ping at this point & you already adjusted the vac adv but it still pings i would either get the vac adv limiter plate that crane sells to limit the amount of advance the vac adv can apply,run the Kemco booster to increase octane & power to stop the ping,or back off the base timing enough to stop the ping. But remeber backing off/retarding the timing will loose power/perf/and fuel mileage which is not what i would do. If its a limited use/wk end only use car i would go the Kemco route to retain all the power/perf/and crisp throttle responce that running a full street perf ign timing curve with a perf cam get's you.

Scott
 
Discussion starter · #13 ·
The next thing I want to do is get the mechanical advance straightened out before I put any more time into the vac. advance. I guess am going to wing it and pick a kit with new weights and try again since I really didn't get a lot of feedback on that issue. If the vaccum advance still gives me grief, I will try that limit plate you speak of. As far as this Kemco stuff, I allready have this mixture of Cam 2, pump gas, and MaxLead 2000 so if that don't cut it, I don't know what would short of straight race gas, which I shouldn't have to do with this mild engine.

Thanks for all the suggestions so far.
 
I used the MSD kit with springs and weights. I weighed the MSD weights and they were a few grams lighter than the stock Delco weights. This will slow your advance rate down. Also, I had to use one medium spring and one soft spring (I think) to fine tune the advance rate. My point is, you can use two different springs to adjust the advance curve.
 
Discussion starter · #15 · (Edited)
I used the MSD kit with springs and weights. I weighed the MSD weights and they were a few grams lighter than the stock Delco weights. This will slow your advance rate down. Also, I had to use one medium spring and one soft spring (I think) to fine tune the advance rate. My point is, you can use two different springs to adjust the advance curve.
Did you use these on a Delco points distributor?

Since it seems the vac adv is the only thing making it ping at this point & you already adjusted the vac adv but it still pings i would either get the vac adv limiter plate that crane sells to limit the amount of advance the vac adv can apply,
Scott
Scott, after looking into things a bit more, you may have solved my vacuum advance problems. I am using the Crane adjustable vacuum advance kit, and when I was looking through the extra springs that came with this kit I noticed this funny looking little black plate, which had absolutely NO mention in the installation instructions for the kit, and after a little digging on Crane's website, I found the installation instructions for the stop plate. Perhaps this could have been the root of my problem all along, I'll find out.
 
Discussion starter · #16 ·
Just an update for anyone following this thread or for anyone in the future... I purchased the Moroso advance kit, part number 72310 which included weights, bushing, and three sets of springs. Compared to stock weights, the Moroso weights are slightly over .01" thinner than stock, I don't have a scale to measure weight in that small of increments, but that difference in thickness should make them substantially lighter. The new weights and springs react very close to what Moroso claims in their instructions, and a combination of one of the lightest springs and one of the medium seems to yeild the max advance point I was trying to achieve. Now I just need to test drive and get the vacuum advance dialed in and I hope I will be set.
 
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