might be Monday, I think those guys take weekends off.

 

I have no doubt about that Tom.

What I have found out last night while reading up on Holley EFI, and others who were either confused, or also had issues "sync'ing" the ECU to the distributor, is that even their forum people have given very conflicting info on how to actually do it....It seems to change, which doesn't help someone like myself...

I read.that there is a "Reference Angle" parameter that has to be 10 degrees higher than your highest commanded timing....The RA in my handheld was either 40 or 45, supposed to be 50, which still isnt 10 higher that what I run, which is 44 degrees total timing...and obviously would not be set right. There is also a differential number that may or may not need to be changed, to make up for any higher rpm timing differences between the actual timing on the balancer, and in the handheld...

Neither of these 2 things is mentioned anywhere in the Sniper instructions.

I did my distributor lock out and ecm sync exactly as Holley's video and tech forum showed, and it didn't work, so I have to wonder if the 2 items above, and me not knowing about them, are the reason why?

Just thinking....typing out loud.

Like I said, with distributor locked out, and No Timing Control, the car runs great, no issues whatsoever...so I know it isn't a problem with car, or distributor...but somewhere in the, what should be simple, synchronization process.

 

I will look at the video when I get home.

Is it possible the pickup polarity is wrong? I had that issue years ago with a hybrid setup mixing Ford and GM stuff. When everything is correct the trigger signal happens at a fairly precise relationship when the points are aligned. If its backwards the trigger happens somewhere in between the terminals so its really hit and miss if its going to run or not. Running ok at higher rpms sounds like what mine did till I figured out what was going on.

 

See above post as well....

This is no hybrid setup, it is 100% plug and play, that can only plug together one way...but anything's possible....

 

I watched the videos. The second video makes sense. I would do it that way. Like they said its all to verify everything is in sync and aligned. When you are in a normal running mode the timing displayed on the handheld should always match the actual timing as read with a timing light. If it doesn't the timing could be off quite a bit.

The second part with drilling the hole in the cap is also important just to make sure its all correct and isn't going to start misfiring when you get some miles on it. I'm surprised most systems don't seem to talk about this step but just like the video you found other people have figured out its important.

I had been through all this with previous projects so when I did it on my FiTech it went pretty well even though it wasn't a plug and play like you have. Is there an option in the setup menu to change the trigger offset if you are not using the MSD dizzy? Or options for what type of dizzy you are using? Just wondering if maybe that is set wrong so its just further confused because things are not aligning as expected. Drilling the hole in the cap will tell you if its right or not. If its wrong you won't see the rotor anywhere near the terminal and while it may run now you get a little moisture and carbon built up its going to misfire like crazy.

 

Yeah, one thing I did not do, because manual never even mentioned it, was to verify timing with car running....in t, they really don't mention any verifying of the initial setup if I remember right.

They only mention (in the video) checking timing sync via the Static Timing feature, and then, only at 10*....

Its also never mentioned about reference angle or trigger offset. I only remember the Fitech discussions about the VR setting used to offset any 4000rpm differences.

Both the reference angle and the offset, in the tuning part of the manual, say they do not not normally need adjustment....which doesn't make a lot of sense.

The Holley Dual Sync distributor uses 50 degrees as their setup point, while an MSD or GM specifies 15, which also doesn't make sense to me.

 

You need to check your timing while running, and check phasing.

 

Doug, I did do the static timing check, exactly as the Holley video said to do it. Set static timing at 10 degrees, moved distributor slightly so it would match, then hit Clear and Close, to exit that section.

Car ran great driving until warmed, then very randomly died like the key was turned off....acted flooded on restart, and handheld read like it was freshly started....got worse and worse, actually popping and backfiring out of the exhaust.

I will try to re-configure it back to timing control again tomorrow and report back.

I did NOT recheck timing sync at any other time.

 

Just to add...attached are my factory defaults from the handheld...

With base timing @ 33*
Cruise @ 52*
WOT @ 44*

It looks like I also need to change the Reference Angle to 54*, before trying to drive it?

 

You need to check the rotor phasing.....

 

I wonder if the reference angle is what is often called a trigger offset? The way everyone uses different words and defines them (or sometimes doesn't bother to define them) makes this stuff really confusing even if you have done stuff like this before. There is no reason for a electronic setup to mechanically have what we normally think of as a base timing. I have read about a lot of cases where that alone was throwing things off.

I wonder if the inductive delay is like the VR 4000 setting in the FiTech? Its maybe compensation for how the trigger drifts a bit at higher rpms? Not important at the moment but could be something useful later. uF is micro seconds.

 

OK Doug....I switched everything back to TIMING CONTROL...

Used 62 degrees as my reference angle, since I run 52 degrees at cruise...

Checked ecu STATIC TIMING against harmonic balancer, at 38*, since I had a nice paint mark there, and tweaked the dist. housing slightly to match...then turned off static timing, set all timing modes to 44 degrees, for uniformity, and checked at roughly 3500 rpms...it was slightly off, so I added to the INDUCTIVE DELAY a few times, until it matched...changed timing in ECU, to what I'll be running, which is 35* idle, 52* cruise, 44* WOT...idle was all over I guess due to other ECU controlled factors, but it matches dead on, 52*, at cruise RPM off 3000 or so...

What's odd, is that it seemed to have ran best with adjustable rotor at ZERO...

My buddy has a MSD distributor cap, with a hole in #1 already, so since my cap was fairly new, I'll borrow his and check phasing...

Did take it for a drive, and car ran great...No pops, backfires, stalls, at all...

I attached quick pic of how it's setup right now

 

I'd phase (center) the rotor at 40-42 degrees..

 

Will do. Thank you sir.

 

That inductive delay is very high. So make sure your timing is matching at low and high rpm.

 

It did yesterday...Now today, with my luck who knows??? LOL

I actually checked it at several different rpm's.

For initial testing, I set ALL timing parameters at 44*
At just off idle, until 4000+ rpm, it was dead on, according to balancer
At idle, without having any adders disabled, the handheld showed timing moving a lot from 30-ish to 36-ish, and balancer agreed...

I then put timing at where I'd be running it, and it matched the 52* "cruise" setting, and I even tried Static Timing Check at 28*, where the nitrous timing will start (as per your recommendation), and it was in sync there as well.

No fluctuations in balancer readings. I actually was mid 400's at first, with the inductive delay setting...

Rotor is perfectly centered with #1 distributor post at 42* of timing

Is there something I should quadruple check here? Or is the higher delay just what my car wants?

I appreciate the help, believe me.

Wow, all of that makes me really love my Quadrajet!

LOL...I hear ya...
Once I dialed in a couple more parameters that need to be adjusted and rotor phasing done, all is well...

Keep on Pumpin' that Quadrajet. My next project is remote start.

 

Wow, all of that makes me really love my Quadrajet!

 

As long as it's spot on at low and high rpm, you should be good to go. So sounds like you got it.

 

Yessir, it's definitely spot on. :thumbsup:

Idle is also ridiculously smoother now...

 

Correct. :thumbsup:

It definitely made a difference on my car.
I thought my ears were clogged up or something, lol...

 

That inductive delay must be how you/they calibrate the ecu to engine for timing? Its a 0 to 360 offset? So this system/ distributor must actually have some sort of specific cylinder reference? It must know or want to know TDC for say #1 vs most systems that want to know TDC but don't know or care which cylinder is which? If so that is interesting and would seem to add a level of complexity to the setup that doesn't seem necessary.


Were you checking your rotor phasing with a running engine and timing light or just visual static?

Your positive power source for the ignition is identical for either setup? Does the ECU ground the coil directly when its in control or is it some sort of signal wire that runs a module or box? Just wondering if there could be a voltage or ground issue that changes when you change how it operates.

When I made the move to timing control was when I picked up a different stumble than I had originally had. My original stumble I think was a phasing issue due to how I had modded the weights and vacuum advance. At tip in from idle the rotor was just too far from the terminal so with some humidity and miles on the cap it would misfire. After I went to timing control I had a stumble at cruise after a few minutes. That turned out to be my car still had the resistor wire from the points in place to the coil feed. Was never a problem that I knew of the last 20 years driving the car with a carb and even the modded HEI but for some reason with the EFI in control it was a problem. Found and bypassed the wire and its good now.

 

See RED below...

That inductive delay must be how you/they calibrate the ecu to engine for timing? Its a 0 to 360 offset? So this system/ distributor must actually have some sort of specific cylinder reference?

Correct. Not sure on the "offset" question, but know it's shown as "usec", whatever that is...Most seem to be in the same range as I was.
#1 cylinder is what they said to use as reference cylinder.

It must know or want to know TDC for say #1 vs most systems that want to know TDC but don't know or care which cylinder is which? If so that is interesting and would seem to add a level of complexity to the setup that doesn't seem necessary.


Were you checking your rotor phasing with a running engine and timing light or just visual static?

Engine running at various rpm's, and compared/sync'ed ECU read timing to balancer. Even checked using the Holley's "static timing" feature that eliminates any ECU induced spark timing fluctuations. The Inductive Delay allows setting it to eliminate high rpm timing reading fluctuations. Mine was rock steady, just like it is, and always has been, when NOT using the timing control.

Your positive power source for the ignition is identical for either setup? Does the ECU ground the coil directly when its in control or is it some sort of signal wire that runs a module or box? Just wondering if there could be a voltage or ground issue that changes when you change how it operates.

Battery Voltage connections are the same, regardless of timing setup.
I use MSD 6425 Digital 6AL box. MSD 8361 Pro Billet distributor
The 2 connections are super simple...

~ If NOT running Timing Control, ECU uses TACH output (GREY wire from MSD harness to Holley harness via an adapter), MSD (purple/green) harness directly connects from the MSD box to the MSD distributor.

~ If USING Timing Control...Holley uses MSD WHITE wire (points input) for trigger, and MSD distributor (purple/green) harness plugs directly into Holley (purple/green) harness connection...MSD box harness is unplugged.

When I made the move to timing control was when I picked up a different stumble than I had originally had. My original stumble I think was a phasing issue due to how I had modded the weights and vacuum advance. At tip in from idle the rotor was just too far from the terminal so with some humidity and miles on the cap it would misfire. After I went to timing control I had a stumble at cruise after a few minutes. That turned out to be my car still had the resistor wire from the points in place to the coil feed. Was never a problem that I knew of the last 20 years driving the car with a carb and even the modded HEI but for some reason with the EFI in control it was a problem. Found and bypassed the wire and its good now.

My car has never had any stumbles, bumbles, or rumbles...Not with the carb, the Fitech, or the Holley Sniper....that is UNTIL I tried to use the Timing Control. Their admin on the Holley Forum seems to think I need a Holley Dual Sync distributor, and that my MSD distributor is simply not communicating well with the Holley EFI...but that's a $400+ guess....If that was GUARANTEED to fix it, I'd buy it, but it's not, so I'm considering just getting a retard box that kicks timing back when nitrous solenoids are energized. That's the best cost effective option for me...but still STINKS...

 

It almost sounds like it's picking up some random "noise" through the system which is causing the CPU to reboot. Reason I say this is I have a Retro Sound stereo in my Camino and the USB port works great with the engine off. Once running it becomes completely random in use, either not seeing the drive, skipping or replying back to the start of the song. Turn the engine off and works perfect again.

Our old cars are not designed with RF/electrical noise in mind and being a System Admin for 18 years, I can tell you that computers like very clean signals and power. I bet if a scope was put on the wires you would end up finding some random pulses that should not be there.

Just some food for thought.

 

Thanks for the insight. After the whole FiTech debacle I went through, I'm definitely not going to spend a bunch of time trying to figure it out, again. And I've decided I'm definitely not buying a $400 distributor for a test, so...

I pretty much have it narrowed down to 2 options...
1. Sell the nitrous kit and be happy running 11.50's as it sits, or
2. Use a timing retard for the nitrous.

 

Dang a lang Bob

Talk about bad luck!

I guess the question is, does your ignition configuration, which is very common for low and high performance street rods, work for hundreds of other people when timing control is handed over to the Holley TB, or is this a common problem a lot of people are seeing that Holley is still working on fixing?

If it works for hundreds of other folks, there couldn't be that many reasons as to why it's not working for you.

Gotta like that suggestion to buy their distributor without a guarantee it'll fix it. I wouldn't do that either. Maybe they could loan you one for testing. >

Can you take the MSD box out of the ignition path for testing purposes? I can't remember if that is possible myself. Might be a PITA, but it would be less money down the rabbit hole.

 

I see no mention of anyone else having this issue....just me...LOL

 

It was recommended to me to get one of the small cap HEI distributors for mid 90's v8,s that had computer controlled whatever.....they have a couple plugs, you probably know what I'm referring to...no internal timing mechanism. I was gonna go that route, with that terminator stealth. But if the timing control stuff doesn't work, might just go back to my previous thought of a carb and the programmable MSD box...

 

I'm sure it works fine...just not working fine on my car...:frown2:
Sadly, I'm getting used to beating my head on the wall, and my car fighting me every time I try to improve it...
I had agreed with the Holley forum guy, about probably needing a Holley Dual Sync distributor. It is (or appears to be) ridiculously easy to synchronize, and connect to the EFI, but, like I said, at $400, plus another $30 for the adapter harness, with no guarantee it will "fix" my issue, it's just not a chance I am going to take. Especially Not when it involves replacing a part that works fine without the EFI controlling it.

My logic is, if something works GREAT (like my MSD dist.) without the Timing Control....then it SHOULD work GREAT with it....
I don't think that's a whole lot to ask of something that is meant as an "improvement", or upgrade...

On my Holley Avenger MPFI I only had three problems to date. A bad TPS right out of the box, an uncrimped wire in the distributor harness, and a bad ECU; Other than that, the system runs fine. Well, the car has been in the paint shop all year and it has less than 500 miles on it, so I don't know what it will do long term.:grin2:

Well, ya can't break it if you ain't driving it...That's a fact. :wink2:

 

On my Holley Avenger MPFI I only had three problems to date. A bad TPS right out of the box, an uncrimped wire in the distributor harness, and a bad ECU; Other than that, the system runs fine. Well, the car has been in the paint shop all year and it has less than 500 miles on it, so I don't know what it will do long term.:grin2:

 

That fancy Holley distributor is $386.96 on sale at Summit today. You know you want one. >

 

Yeah, but don't forget the REQUIRED adapter, that neither Summit, nor Jegs, nor HOLLEY sells...

P/N 558-493

https://www.holley.com/products/ignition/ignition_harnesses/

So, I could call Summit or Jegs today, and have the $386.96 dual sync distributor by Friday, but it'd be of zero use to me, until I find an adapter that the manufacturer doesn't even sell, or list on their site, that I can see.........

And my wife has the nerve to ask me why I drink....lol. :angry:

Gee, I was beginning to think I was alone with all of the crap happening to me by my devil car from hell. That was why I punished it in March by putting it in paint jail for 6 weeks. Then it retaliated by staying there all year, and it STILL won't come out to play! Now I have to wait another 4 months to drive it because it will be too pretty to drive it in the salt. Dammed car! :angry: I feel your pain!

I knew I wasn't alone....see above...for Chapter 3,496,210,898,274,645, or so....

 

Made an interesting find after work....

It's supposed to be very cold, so knew today would be last drive for a while. ...

Now everything is back to how it ran it's current best a few weeks ago....total timing 44, base, roughly 33, 11 degree advance bushing.

Took it out and knew it was going to be a little dumb, since it's all been reset after removing timing control...

Didn't feel right, and started the bucking and half stalling crap again....the ONLY thing different than a few weeks ago, is the use of the MSD adjustable phase rotor.

It was perfectly centered on #1 distributor post....

Swapped on the "stock" MSD rotor and it ran fine....

Can this brand new phase-able rotor be bad??? It IS the one that my MSD distributor calls for, and it was perfectly in line with the #1 cylinder post on my test distributor cap, so......

Now, I want to lock it back out and try it (timing control) with a stock rotor and see what happens.....

 

It is possible you have a connection issue inside the adjustable rotor. I have not taken the one I have laying here apart to see how it's constructed. Have you taken yours apart to see if there is some junk in there keeping it from making good contact?

You could try the MSD Cap-A-Dapt cap and adjustable rotor (PN 8420). It has two hold screws for the phasing adjustment. The smaller adjustable rotor (PN 84211) for the pro billet has only one hold screw. I doubt that is the problem, but the larger cap in the 8420 kit is supposed to help with potential misfires.

Goofy wiring diagram. The MSD ignition might be that little square in the lower left with the white and brown wires.

 

What I was asking about rotor phasing is did you check it with a timing light and clear or drilled out cap with the engine running to see where it was actually firing in relation to the terminals? All the checks you mentioned are just verifying timing. The phasing aspect is often mentioned but seems to be written as an afterthought, not a critical thing that needs to be correct. Just like you verifying that the timing light matches the readout as a final check same thing should be done for the phasing.

Did you ever figure out how to or if you can read logs with that thing? If noise was an issue you should see something odd in the logs.

I get what you are saying about the new dizzy. I'm going through something similar with some other equipment right now. Ran fine before, replaced a worn out part now its not running right and the tech thinks what worked fine for the last 6 years is now a mismatch. "I think that will fix it" just doesn't inspire much confidence. If they would say this system really was designed for a 30* dodad and yours is a 29* that would be one thing but they ain't saying that.

 

What I was asking about rotor phasing is did you check it with a timing light and clear or drilled out cap with the engine running to see where it was actually firing in relation to the terminals? All the checks you mentioned are just verifying timing. The phasing aspect is often mentioned but seems to be written as an afterthought, not a critical thing that needs to be correct. Just like you verifying that the timing light matches the readout as a final check same thing should be done for the phasing.

YES. I modified an MSD cap so I could see rotor from the top, or the side. As per Doug F., with my timing parameters, it should be centered on #1 post at 41-42* degrees, which it is...as EXACT as one could get it with the naked eye.

I don't know if you saw post just above yours, but when I switched it back to NON TIMING CONTROL, (unlocked distributor, changed settings in ECU), BUT using the adjustable rotor, it still ran like crap, after driven a few miles...And again, rotor phasing was dead centered @ 44*, which is where my mechanical timing is at 2500 rpm, and double checked before driving....With stock rotor swapped back on, car ran fine again....

Very odd that when rotor is phased properly, regardless of whether timing control is enabled or not, the car runs horrible...Even more odd is the fact that no one has any idea why this happens...I'm leaning towards some sort of issue with my MSD distributor, unless someone offers a different theory. I may try enabling Timing Control again, but without the rotor phasing being done...since quite obviously when it IS done, regardless of how the timing is controlled....the rotor phasing seems to NOT work.

Did you ever figure out how to or if you can read logs with that thing? If noise was an issue you should see something odd in the logs.

I have some stored, but supposedly cannot SEE them until the elusive software is released....which, was supposed to be this week....now they're saying mid-January...One guy on Holley forum said he could read logs off of the removable SD card, but I keep forgetting to bring in my card reader to see if I can see them as well.

I get what you are saying about the new dizzy. I'm going through something similar with some other equipment right now. Ran fine before, replaced a worn out part now its not running right and the tech thinks what worked fine for the last 6 years is now a mismatch. "I think that will fix it" just doesn't inspire much confidence. If they would say this system really was designed for a 30* dodad and yours is a 29* that would be one thing but they ain't saying that.

Exactly...And to make matters worse, I was ready to buy the $400 distributor yesterday, from Jegs or Summit, but they don't sell, or list, the adapter that Holley says I need to use it with my setup...In fact, searching the part number, it didn't even show up on Holley's website...How STUPID is that???

Oh, and the diagram, in the Holley Sniper manual, as well as the diagram online at Holley, shows how to connect wiring to an MSD box, yet the MSD box is not even shown??? (see attachment) They say several times throughout, to either use an MSD ignition OR the included COIL DRIVER, but never both....but there's a coil driver shown, and no msd box? Near identical diagram to the one that's actually FOR the coil driver setup....

I bought a Holley setup to get away from the dumb shi+...not to continue with it...

Red highlighted above....

 

I'll have to go with that is really annoying. But wouldn't you be bored if it just worked like it's supposed too. >

It sure seems to me that you proved using the adjustable rotor causes the issue. Although I must admit I have not read all the replies.

Anyway, if you have enough latitude to line everything up with the stock style rotor, and not introduce misfiring between posts, problem solved, right?

I'm trying to be positive here, which according to my wife is impossible.

Good luck

 

I'll have to go with that is really annoying. But wouldn't you be bored if it just worked like it's supposed too. >

It sure seems to me that you proved using the adjustable rotor causes the issue. Although I must admit I have not read all the replies.

Anyway, if you have enough latitude to line everything up with the stock style rotor, and not introduce misfiring between posts, problem solved, right?

I'm trying to be positive here, which according to my wife is impossible.

Good luck

Thanks. I guess it's worth a shot...I know it won't "be in phase", but like I said on here somewhere...I've never, ever had a phased distributor, and never had a problem with misfire....

Annoying is spending near 3 grand....for what amounts to a car that I can say is fuel injected, and starts easier...lol

Whoopdee-Doo, right?

 

If you set the rotors side by side is there any visible difference you can see as to the height of the contacts?

Is it maybe some sort of design flaw and the location of the adjustment screws are causing a cross fire or path to ground?

They way you modded the cap can you actually see the spark with either of the rotors?

If you are using a dial back timing light are you paying attention to where its set? Or is it just me that forgets that little detail?