Hi
Whats the right procedure for block machining?
1.Checking mains/linehone
2.Decking the block
3. Boring & honing
???

Some say its important to do the decking before boring, why is that?

Can someone explain this to me please?

A-M

=
You have the order right :thumbsup:

With a conventional boring bar if the deck is not done before boring & it is not straight to the mains which very few are the bores are not going to be straight to the mains.
GM blocks are machined from the pan rails & the mains are not normally straight to this.
I as well as Carl use a 4 axis CNC machine which probes the block & puts everything where it belongs if possible,,, bores, decks lifter bores etc.
All this can be done with conventional equipment but it is a big advantage to be able to adjust everything from one data point without going from machine to machine.
Every time you move the block you can induce errors,,, small but they can add up.
Anyway, you want the mains done first, then the cam tunnel if you are going this far.
Then you use these as a reference for all other operations.
At the least you want the decks & bores done off the mains & there are very few machines that actually do this accurately.
Any boring mill is capable of this if the block is set up on a round bar with rings that are the size of the mains & you have a fixture that sets the 45 degree bank angles.
Rottler boring fixtures while a good machine do not use the main centerline as a reference, they use the pan rail with a bar through the mains that locks the block.
They can be very accurate if you take the time to measure all four corners for deck height from the mains BEFORE YOU PUT THE BLOCK IN THE MACHINE & adjust it accordingly but this is a PIA & most shops just don't do it.
BHJ makes fixturing that does a very good job & I used it for years with excellent results but you are still relying on two or three pieces of equipment to get your measurements.
I feel the new machines are head & shoulders above the older methods just for the fact you are starting from one data point & adjusting everything from there.
Any machinist that wishes to be truthful with you will tell you that measuring a block is not an easy deal & moving from one setup to another can induce errors that are very hard to measure without the aid of some very high end equipment (CMM machines for one) that are outside the scope or budget of all but the highest end shops like the cup guys,,,
I am sure Carl can add to this as we could do on for days on this
subject

 

Thank you for the profound reply Mike!
Well, then I guess it will be a problem if you want to pre-assemble the parts with the oversize pistons and check piston to head clearance to be able to deck the block for proper quench!? How do you solve this if you need to do the decking before boring??

A-M

 

Thank you for the profound reply Mike!
Well, then I guess it will be a problem if you want to pre-assemble the parts with the oversize pistons and check piston to head clearance to be able to deck the block for proper quench!? How do you solve this if you need to do the decking before boring??

A-M

=
You are welcome,,

You only need to deck before boring if you are using a bolt to block bar.
The height is a "piece of cake'
1/2 stroke + rod length + compression height = deck height.
With my old boring mill I would bore then deck one side, rotate the block 90 degrees then deck & bore the other so I only had to change tools once.
With the CNC machine it bores all eight, then I change tools & deck or I can do it the other way around,, makes no difference.
Just depends on which program I want to run first.
Carl's machine has an automatic tool changer so his can be programmed to bore & deck while you are off doing something else,,,,

Most aftermarket pistons, rods & cranks are very accurate so you will be about as close as you can get unless you want to juggle pistons & rods & or "massage" the pistons for an exact number but this is something not necessary except in a max effort deal where you are working with very close quench, p/v clearance etc.
You are going to be within a couple of thou in almost all cases with the above formula.
If not you need to speak with the vendors of the offending parts
Good luck getting anything done about it though,,, :sad:

 

CNC machining is great fast and very accurate, As Mike and I only use one datum point to machine the whole block and no fixtures required as there is more chance for error when doing this and we have the ability of checking the blocks out before we start on a block to see what we are up against.

Its like having 2 or 3 extra men in the shop and it don't take breaks, doesn't complaine, doesn't spend an hour on the shytter on company time and works holidays too.

Here is a link on blue print machining a block feel free to ask questions Mike or myself should be able to help you out on.
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93124

 

Hi
Whats the right procedure for block machining?
1.Checking mains/linehone
2.Decking the block
3. Boring & honing
???

Some say its important to do the decking before boring, why is that?

Can someone explain this to me please?

A-M

Technically speaking, you'll have a much more accurate build by machining the decks last. If you do the mains and bores first you'll be able to use the components that are going to end up inside to get a "dead-on" deck height. On most "higher-end" units we build they invariably end up in the "Cylinder-King" twice. We open the bores, hone them enough to fit the pistons in, and take measurements, we don't assume the crank stroke, rod length, pin height, etc. (even though they can be checked ahead of time), to be where they're supposed to be. This entire procedure works to our customer's advantage. We put the "final" finish on the bores at or near ass'y time. We DONT bank any dimensions from the decks or the pan rails. It's all done from the cam and main area. Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

 

Mike and Carl - With these fancy dancy CNC machines, how long does it take to complete a block?
How much time is saved from the conventional method?
Curious minds need to know.

 

Wolfy, Glad to see you have returned. All those expensive high end 4 axis mills are really beautiful. Do you ever take sonic readings of the cylinder walls before starting work on a block? I'd also like to know if the aftermarket blocks tend to be more accurately machined from the manufacturer or not and are the lifter bores on a big block truer than the small blocks which i've heard is a problem on the chevy small blocks from the factory. I noticed that the block that Carl had picturers of seemed to be internally machined in the lifter valley area, i assume to cut the weight of the block by a few pounds. It sure was pretty.

 

Im very impressed by your knowledge guys!!! And thanks for the link to the "block machining tour", really interesting. Let say you are on a budget, what parts would you sacrifice? We all know that all of this isnt really necessary for a 350-400 HP street engine. I keep on telling myself you are pretty safe if you check the mains and correcting them, if needed. Deck the block square and then bore/hone it with plates. What do you think guys?

A-M

 

Im very impressed by your knowledge guys!!! And thanks for the link to the "block machining tour", really interesting. Let say you are on a budget, what parts would you sacrifice? We all know that all of this isnt really necessary for a 350-400 HP street engine. I keep on telling myself you are pretty safe if you check the mains and correcting them, if needed. Deck the block square and then bore/hone it with plates. What do you think guys?

A-M

Well if your boring bar sets on the deck its a must to square and deck the block first, As Mike and I can bore of the main line and don't need to deck the at all.

We try to deck everything that comes in the shop as it just makes a better peice when its all done.

 

Wolfy, Glad to see you have returned. All those expensive high end 4 axis mills are really beautiful. Do you ever take sonic readings of the cylinder walls before starting work on a block? I'd also like to know if the aftermarket blocks tend to be more accurately machined from the manufacturer or not and are the lifter bores on a big block truer than the small blocks which i've heard is a problem on the chevy small blocks from the factory. I noticed that the block that Carl had picturers of seemed to be internally machined in the lifter valley area, i assume to cut the weight of the block by a few pounds. It sure was pretty.

I asked Dart at the Pri show last weekend how close there blocks are and there reply was these are production blocks and are roughed machined and its up to the engine builder to finish the block to blue print and they said the could blue print and block to with in .0005 but they would have to pay for a days work to acheive this.

We find on the after market blocks that they seem to be with in .005 worst one I have seen has been .007

Some of the early BBC had some issues with the lifter bores and the late blocks that came form the Tonawanda plant in NY were the best OEM blocks I have seen and once they went to Mexico they were not so good after that.

That was a lightened Dart block that weighed about 171 pounds after fully machined and a 50MM cam tunnel and here is a pic all finished as its circle track engine with the Vortec Bowtie heads and dynoed 639 HP and 514 TQ

 

Mike and Carl - With these fancy dancy CNC machines, how long does it take to complete a block?
How much time is saved from the conventional method?
Curious minds need to know.

=
HI Jerry,
Common question & one I didn't & don't consider when looking at them.
In my case & I am sure Carl's as well the speed was not even a consideration, the accuracy is all I really care about but to answer your question, after the block is in the machine it will probe, bore & deck one in probably less than 30 minutes at full speed if that was your desire.
The other upside is you can also walk away & do something else while it does it's thing,,,,

Harold,
Yes, we commonly sonic check the cylinders of GM blocks to see what it looks like before boring & decide what to do from there.
Also the probing cycle will tell you if you can bring the block back to blueprint or not & a lot of the stock blocks ain't gonna make it to print,, not a big deal as we have been using the existing centerline for years to bore a hole & the engines were reasonably happy.
Trouble with these damn machines is they tell you more than you sometimes want to know
As Carl said, the aftermarket blocks at least the Dart ones, are pretty accurate.
As for the lifter bores, problem is without checking there is no way to know if they are where they belong & even if it were one out of a hundred,,,, it might be yours,,,

Technically speaking, you'll have a much more accurate build by machining the decks last. If you do the mains and bores first you'll be able to use the components that are going to end up inside to get a "dead-on" deck height. On most "higher-end" units we build they invariably end up in the "Cylinder-King" twice. We open the bores, hone them enough to fit the pistons in, and take measurements, we don't assume the crank stroke, rod length, pin height, etc. (even though they can be checked ahead of time), to be where they're supposed to be. This entire procedure works to our customer's advantage. We put the "final" finish on the bores at or near ass'y time. We DONT bank any dimensions from the decks or the pan rails. It's all done from the cam and main area. Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

=
This is pretty much the standard answer I have gotten from shops that don't have the ability to measure parts or deck height correctly or that uses the CK10 to "bore" a block.
Go ask a cup shop how they machine a block.
No one here except you said anything about assuming anything or taking any measurements for granted.
The point about doing the deck first is related to shops that use a block mounted bar & if done correctly this can do an excellent job in the right hands.
Reread my post & read the whole thing.
A "Cylinder King is an excellent finishing tool & we all have one (better known as a CK10/CV616) but is not the tool to correct the cylinder to the main bore axis,,, it just follows whatever hole is there.
If it ain't straight from the vendor it still ain't straight after honing, just bigger

 

Technically speaking, you'll have a much more accurate build by machining the decks last. If you do the mains and bores first you'll be able to use the components that are going to end up inside to get a "dead-on" deck height. On most "higher-end" units we build they invariably end up in the "Cylinder-King" twice. We open the bores, hone them enough to fit the pistons in, and take measurements, we don't assume the crank stroke, rod length, pin height, etc. (even though they can be checked ahead of time), to be where they're supposed to be. This entire procedure works to our customer's advantage. We put the "final" finish on the bores at or near ass'y time. We DONT bank any dimensions from the decks or the pan rails. It's all done from the cam and main area. Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

You mean to tell me that you hone a block and fit all the peices up then deck the block, And your honing the blocks to size WOW as we have had to bore blocks .200 over before, And honing that much out is kind of unheard of unless you don't have the correct equipment to do the job.

So if you fit a assembly in a block and from the front of the block there is .004 differance to the rear of the block your going to taper the deck back because the stroke of the crank maybe off that far or the compression height of the piston or the rod lenth may be off as well, So now the decks are not square to the main line and not having the decks square how good will the intake fit. And what happens if the rotator is ever changed in the block ???? Throw the block away cause the piston are hanging out of the deck or down in the hole.

I have been to a lot of shops and never heard of machining block this way and over the last 6 years we have done quite a few blocks and if we had to have the customer send me the rotator to fit up I am sure I would have been out of bussiness years ago.

P.S. you posted a few weeks ago that you had 80 blocks or so to machine you will be a long time fitting every assembley up in those blocks hopefully you get paid by the hour. You may want to up date to some good equipment and measuring tools.

P.S. again I can see why you don't post no bussiness name or address. I would love to probe out a block that you machined in this fashion as all the shops I deal with deck them first and then use a boring bar to bore them with and not hone them out with a hone.

 

With all due respect Mr. Wolfplace, how the machine work is done is really of no importance to the customer. In the end it's the final results that matter, how much power you can make and how long the unit's gonna last. The initial thread was questioning the sequence for the machining operations. I'll try to give it to you once more, likewise read my post again, he'll have a much more accurate unit by doing the decks last, by "measuring" with the actual pieces that are going inside that unit when it's assembled. Period. In order to achieve that 100% accurate number, you have to use those same pieces. We do build some serious HP units out here in N.Y. and have the machining, all of it, down to a science. Deck mounted boring bars have no place (anymore) in "high-end" shops! I have to laugh a little about all the "pushing" some "other-builders" do up here when they "flaunt" their equipment. Most decent shops today have the right tools, from hand tools to the CNC's. We have the opportunity to bore, deck, align bore or align hone (mains & cam), balance on a choice of 3 balancers, dyno on a choice of 2 dyno's (now) and flow heads on any of our 3 Superflows, and I could go on and on, so what. My own personal customers don't really care about my tools, all they want to know is how much power they're gettin' and how much it's gonna cost, in that order. Thanks, Gary in N.Y.
P.S. We know how to make horsepower AND keep all the units together. Having access to one of the best head porters in the country, probably one of a handful, gives us a tremendous edge in the HP game. In the past week up here in a post I did on a 406 SB we tested, I got accused of inflating the dyno numbers, (something to the effect they would like to see it tested on a "west-coast" dyno) which is music to my ears, because it gives me a better picture of what's really out in the field for HP with similar combos. None of this is possible without the correct machine work, and I know I don't have to tell you, of all people, that.

 

With all due respect Mr. Wolfplace, how the machine work is done is really of no importance to the customer. In the end it's the final results that matter, how much power you can make and how long the unit's gonna last. The initial thread was questioning the sequence for the machining operations. I'll try to give it to you once more, likewise read my post again, he'll have a much more accurate unit by doing the decks last, by "measuring" with the actual pieces that are going inside that unit when it's assembled. Period. In order to achieve that 100% accurate number, you have to use those same pieces. We do build some serious HP units out here in N.Y. and have the machining, all of it, down to a science. Deck mounted boring bars have no place (anymore) in "high-end" shops! I have to laugh a little about all the "pushing" some "other-builders" do up here when they "flaunt" their equipment. Most decent shops today have the right tools, from hand tools to the CNC's. We have the opportunity to bore, deck, align bore or align hone (mains & cam), balance on a choice of 3 balancers, dyno on a choice of 2 dyno's (now) and flow heads on any of our 3 Superflows, and I could go on and on, so what. My own personal customers don't really care about my tools, all they want to know is how much power they're gettin' and how much it's gonna cost, in that order. Thanks, Gary in N.Y.
P.S. We know how to make horsepower AND keep all the units together. Having access to one of the best head porters in the country, probably one of a handful, gives us a tremendous edge in the HP game. In the past week up here in a post I did on a 406 SB we tested, I got accused of inflating the dyno numbers, (something to the effect they would like to see it tested on a "west-coast" dyno) which is music to my ears, because it gives me a better picture of what's really out in the field for HP with similar combos. None of this is possible without the correct machine work, and I know I don't have to tell you, of all people, that.

=
Well,,,, now I am just so suitably impressed I almost don't know how to answer

I can only wish I had customers that didn't give a $hit about my machine work

Seems most of my customers do care how the machine work is done & a lot check it & I don't get too many complaints.

But I will have to admit I ain't got that "science" thing down too good,,, we just wait til the stars are aligned & the moon is full to build our under-horsepowered stuff,,,,

Now, if I understand you correctly,, you are saying you don't know how to measure the compression height of a piston, the length of a rod & the stroke of a crank on all your magic widget way cool New York tools without stickin it all in the block???

I for one don't have a problem measuring this stuff but mabye I am just not up to speed on this machinin' & measruin' stuff,, probably using the wrong tape measure,,,, :sad:

As for your dyno numbers, my only comment is all dynos are different & mine seems a bit on the "conservative" side compared to some

People can believe what they want, I do not & will not get into the "advertised HP numbers game"

PS:
We out here also seem to have a few engines that run pretty good.
Funny thing about dyno numbers, I have a 670HP 332" small block that seems to have an identity crisis as it wants to just run away from a couple of "750hp" engines in the same class of racing from some pretty hi end builders??
Strange how that works,,,,

 

After studying this subject for quite some time i find i'm more confused than ever about the power vs. how fast will it accelerate puzzle. My son was down about 40 H.P. to a friend's Chevelle at Springfield's CC Fall Nationals a couple of years back at which point he was challenged to a "on the motor" race. His car beat the higher power car twice after which the guy who had bought the other Chevelle immediately sold it. Even after you know how much power a motor has you still might not know how fast it will cover the quarter mile. You've got a nice shop there Carl.

 

gofast, you really are the hero around here lately, man you talk a big game, and do things different ways, man you really are smarter then the 2 smartest engine guys here, you guys in long island must have the secret that know one anywhere in the world has, maybe you should patent it so it can be only yours.

 

You would be surprised how many shops out there still bore from the deck of the block with out decking first. As far as the machine Carl and Mike have they are second to none when it comes to blueprinting a block.

When engines are machined in this fashion you can here the diffrents on the way the engine runs on the dyno it is very smooth and comes up in Rpm with no strain at all.

If you are building a high end piece this is the only way to machine the block.

I will be heading up to carls shop after Christmas to have cam tunnels done on a block. As i beleave he is one of the few shop close to me in PA.that can due it correctly.

PS: I have talked to both Mike/Carl and both gentilmen know what they are talking about and they don,t spew this info out just to try and impress some one.For them to come on here and give out years of free info is a plus to every one.

 

What can I say, this seemed to be a popular tread
Well, no matter what people say I totally trust Wolfpace & Carl. I know that these guys know what they are talking about! The best thing is that they dont have anything against sharing their knowledge for free while keeping up a good spirit, thats what I call PROFESSIONAL service!

Thank you for all the information!!!

A-M

 

What can I say, this seemed to be a popular tread
Well, no matter what people say I totally trust Wolfpace & Carl. I know that these guys know what they are talking about! The best thing is that they dont have anything against sharing their knowledge for free while keeping up a good spirit, thats what I call PROFESSIONAL service!

Thank you for all the information!!!

A-M

And Mike and I have websites and a phone number where we can be reached and a address where we can be found and GOFAST has all this work without a phone number to be reached or address where to found (THE PHANTOM MACHINE SHOP)

P.S. at least a few guys here can read the writing on the wall.

 

carl, yeah i read the writing on the wall, this guy hasn't built a motor ever,

 

Sure likes to post numbers though.

P.S. cough BS cough

 

With all due respect Mr. Wolfplace, how the machine work is done is really of no importance to the customer. In the end it's the final results that matter, how much power you can make and how long the unit's gonna last. The initial thread was questioning the sequence for the machining operations. I'll try to give it to you once more, likewise read my post again, he'll have a much more accurate unit by doing the decks last, by "measuring" with the actual pieces that are going inside that unit when it's assembled. Period. In order to achieve that 100% accurate number, you have to use those same pieces. We do build some serious HP units out here in N.Y. and have the machining, all of it, down to a science. Deck mounted boring bars have no place (anymore) in "high-end" shops! I have to laugh a little about all the "pushing" some "other-builders" do up here when they "flaunt" their equipment. Most decent shops today have the right tools, from hand tools to the CNC's. We have the opportunity to bore, deck, align bore or align hone (mains & cam), balance on a choice of 3 balancers, dyno on a choice of 2 dyno's (now) and flow heads on any of our 3 Superflows, and I could go on and on, so what. My own personal customers don't really care about my tools, all they want to know is how much power they're gettin' and how much it's gonna cost, in that order. Thanks, Gary in N.Y.
P.S. We know how to make horsepower AND keep all the units together. Having access to one of the best head porters in the country, probably one of a handful, gives us a tremendous edge in the HP game. In the past week up here in a post I did on a 406 SB we tested, I got accused of inflating the dyno numbers, (something to the effect they would like to see it tested on a "west-coast" dyno) which is music to my ears, because it gives me a better picture of what's really out in the field for HP with similar combos. None of this is possible without the correct machine work, and I know I don't have to tell you, of all people, that.

2 Dynos, 3 Balancers and 3 Super flows WOW, I only have two balancers but only use one.

P.S. GARY IF YOUR GOING TO BLOW SOMKE UP MY A-SS YOU BETTER BUILD A BIGGER FIRE THEN THAT.

A you did not anser my post about squaring the decks the way you do.

 

While I Have Everyones Attention

Whether or not we really do exist, and you guys have me wondering now, I want to a get one MAJOR point across. I know it's off the initial issue, but it seems the most savvy people are up here now (at this post) and I can get you all to "listen". For anyone accepting or waiting to have a unit built that's gonna end up at the dragstrip and makes over 400HP, DON'T under any circumstances accept it unless the "core plugs, freeze plugs, or whatever you want to call them" are held in place with some sort of retainer. I've been "screaming" at NHRA to make it a safety issue for a few weeks now. Having lost a unit recently up here in the Northeast, the customer was OK however, I'm gonna "harp" on this one for a long time. On this issue I need help, not criticism. The guy "in the next lane" may be your worst nightmare. And on a final note here, this part is aimed directly at the shops, you never know when you're gonna end up on some lawyer's "hit-list". Thanks, Gary in N.Y.
P.S. I like that name "The Phantom Machine Shop".

 

Re: While I Have Everyones Attention

Whether or not we really do exist, and you guys have me wondering now, I want to a get one MAJOR point across. I know it's off the initial issue, but it seems the most savvy people are up here now (at this post) and I can get you all to "listen". For anyone accepting or waiting to have a unit built that's gonna end up at the dragstrip and makes over 400HP, DON'T under any circumstances accept it unless the "core plugs, freeze plugs, or whatever you want to call them" are held in place with some sort of retainer. I've been "screaming" at NHRA to make it a safety issue for a few weeks now. Having lost a unit recently up here in the Northeast, the customer was OK however, I'm gonna "harp" on this one for a long time. On this issue I need help, not criticism. The guy "in the next lane" may be your worst nightmare. And on a final note here, this part is aimed directly at the shops, you never know when you're gonna end up on some lawyer's "hit-list". Thanks, Gary in N.Y.
P.S. I like that name "The Phantom Machine Shop".

That Dart block must have been the first one you have ever worked on as all the ones we have done we debur the freeze plug holes and if you read the directions it tells that the block needs to be debured.

And you should add a disclaimer to your bill its a racing engine. Have never heard of any one being sued for a engine expiring or a rear end letting go or transmission breaking ETC.

 

I guess someone is getting **** in here LOL

A-M