[dirtrocker]

I remember back round 2000 or so when the internet started getting popular. Different but the same. Friend of mine owns a high end car audio/ alarm/ electronics place. People started questioning his price on everything, getting price quotes on parts + installation............. then buying the part off the internet and expecting the same deal.

He got past it, as already stated if U bring the part in and it fails, it's your problem. Installation prices vary if he supplies the components or not. No real problem now, just the way it is.

Likewise, with all the talk about less than perfect aftermarket cranks, rods, etc........... if I go into a machine shop with new parts bought elsewhere and there's a problem, I expect to have to pay to fix that problem, or deal with whomever I bought the part from.

 

[kboorman]

"If you want to buy parts mail order then have them build your motor."

That's just plain ignorant. I think if I was looking into a shop to do a motor for me and I saw a sign like this, I'd go somewhere else. Who needs that kind of attitude right off the bat?

As long as the right parts are supplied and it is understood that the shop will only be responsible for labor, I don't see the problem. If the parts - new or otherwise - need attention before they can be used (balancing, resizing, etc...) then the customer should expect to have to pay for the builder's services. If a wrong part is supplied and it results in additional time or labor, the customer should expect to pay accordingly. If a part fails due to defect, it should be up to the customer to persue any warranties from the manufacturer, not the builder.

Where it would seem to get sticky is if a part failed due to a mistake by the builder. I think you'd have a hard time getting some guys to admit fault in a situation like that and I think there'd be some harsh words exchanged by the time it was all said and done.

Personally, I scrimp and save for every part that I buy so if I can get a quality part for the lowest price from the internet, mail order or otherwise, I'm going to do it. I don't mind paying a fair price for labor but I can't see my builder acting as a middle man just to profit from the sale of parts that I can get myself.

 

[trmnatr]

That's just plain ignorant. I think if I was looking into a shop to do a motor for me and I saw a sign like this, I'd go somewhere else. Who needs that kind of attitude right off the bat?

As long as the right parts are supplied and it is understood that the shop will only be responsible for labor, I don't see the problem. If the parts - new or otherwise - need attention before they can be used (balancing, resizing, etc...) then the customer should expect to have to pay for the builder's services. If a wrong part is supplied and it results in additional time or labor, the customer should expect to pay accordingly. If a part fails due to defect, it should be up to the customer to persue any warranties from the manufacturer, not the builder.

Where it would seem to get sticky is if a part failed due to a mistake by the builder. I think you'd have a hard time getting some guys to admit fault in a situation like that and I think there'd be some harsh words exchanged by the time it was all said and done.

Personally, I scrimp and save for every part that I buy so if I can get a quality part for the lowest price from the internet, mail order or otherwise, I'm going to do it. I don't mind paying a fair price for labor but I can't see my builder acting as a middle man just to profit from the sale of parts that I can get myself.

Look at this example,,

The builder gives you a price with labor he knows he needs to do with parts he is using such as possible machine crank to true it up

Now you buy the parts, he doesnt know what your getting, then the parts come in that you spent $$$ on and now holds him up to machine your parts that you are gonna be yelling about the machine work to new parts when he charges you

Most builders when they sell you a crank will true it up for the selling price, Does Mail Order? No

Most Builders check the rods and size them to cover their a$$ upon even selling them to you, Does Mail Order? No

People dont realize how much money in tool your machine shop or engine builder has, heck i wouldnt even want to guess and the only machine shop items i have are a valve grinder and seat grinder and that alone is probally $10,000 (i know the seat grinder is $5,400 because i looked at a new one, I think the valve grinder was $5,100 , have had ours for ages though)

 

[kboorman]

I already addressed these scenarios in my previous post Butch. I would expect the parts to be examined (for a fee if necessary) by the builder and if they needed work, I would expect to pay for that as well. I would expect any builder to have to do this kind of stuff prior to assembly even if he supplied the parts. If he supplies them, I'm sure this would be figured into his price. If I supply them, then I have no problem compensating him for his time.

I guess not all people think like I do though and I can see what you're saying. I just figure that if everyone agrees where responsibilities for parts and labor lie, there should be no problem.

 

[rustbucket79]

It's a tough racket to be in these days, my business partner who's several years my senior (been in the business over double my time, and it's been 17 years for me this summer) regale me on times of gross profit, where a price sheet on parts ment something. Shops bought at jobber, sold to other shops at trade, customer paid retail. Everyone made a decent profit. Today, it's a constant battle, forcing us to do as much shopping as the customer does to get the best price and make a few bucks.

When you're busy, it's easy to have a "no outside parts" policy. There is no doubt that someone walking in with a truck full of parts is going to have some missmatched stuff, and most people on this site know that a bolt on part is rarely so these days. It's also understandable for shops to have "chips on their shoulders" towards the internet parts sales and crate engine business, they errode the small shop's viability.

Trust me when I say that this industry is far from the gold mine it once was, for many of us have seen the market fall off sharply in the past 5 years or so, mainly in the stock engine rebuild category. In a nutshell, for my company, the shop used to support the parts department. Now, the opposite occurs.

I'm happy to work with a customer that brings in his own parts, but I need at least some of my time covered if I need to inspect/modify/exchange things. Often times it's tough to explain to the customer that he has the wrong springs or camshaft selection, or his bearings are the wrong size, etc. I'm working on a 598 BBC right now, the bulk of the parts brought in by the customer. In particular, BMF 405 heads, Manley valves of the required spec, springs, etc. After taking a good hour measuring, corresponding with BMF, etc., I had 2 options. Sell the customer new valves (big money) or order in Manton Lash Locks which raise the installed height .100". I chose the latter, now I hope once they arrive that they work as advertised. Oh, and IIRC it was 3 hours worth of trial fitting and clearancing for the 7/16" pushrods this engine requires, plus the stress of risking breaking through the port wall while you're doing it, not nice. That part is finished, and no problems thankfully.:hurray:

 

[trmnatr]

I already addressed these scenarios in my previous post Butch. I would expect the parts to be examined (for a fee if necessary) by the builder and if they needed work, I would expect to pay for that as well. I would expect any builder to have to do this kind of stuff prior to assembly even if he supplied the parts. If he supplies them, I'm sure this would be figured into his price. If I supply them, then I have no problem compensating him for his time.

I guess not all people think like I do though and I can see what you're saying. I just figure that if everyone agrees where responsibilities for parts and labor lie, there should be no problem.

Very True and EXCELLENT point :thumbsup:

Not all people are like you though ! I have seen jobs go down hill when a valve spring breaks on a supplied set of good heads with the "correct" spring and the builder gets the bad rap ,, In your case it looks like your aware of who is responsible

 

[Dean]

I have always bought all my own parts and brought them to the machine shop with my block as have all my friends. Never have had a complaint or issue. If the shop gives you crap...run as fast as you can. If they can't make it machining, assemble, dyno then they are hacks and will screw you anyway.

That is just not true. :noway:

Its not necessarily true that "they can't make it machining, assemble, dyno"

Just because a shop needs to make a profit to stay in business or just doesn't want to get into "who warranties what" arguments, does in no way mean they are a hack.

 

[66TWODOORPOST(THE*BEAST)]

When I was doing my motor my local Machine Shop guy was the one who told me what to find elsewhere (heads) and told me exactly what to find so he could make me the best possible product a bit cheaper. He lost money in that instance but gained a life long customer in me and more money in the long run. It is just like anything, its all in how you play your cards and if the customer feels good then everyone wins and if that doesnt work for someone then they can do it themself.

 

[dirtrocker]

I don't think this is something U can just throw a blanket statement at. If U look at aftermarket parts as used parts in that they need to be checked there shouldn't be a problem.

If you need to have a part checked by a machinist, don't expect his time to be free.

If you don't trust, believe, or have faith in a machinist your dealing with you should prolly deal with someone else. Run into several people like this in a row, consider that the problem might just be you

 

[kboorman]

If U look at aftermarket parts as used parts in that they need to be checked there shouldn't be a problem.

I agree 100%. That's a good way to put it and I was going to use that analogy myself, but I think I made my point.

 

[how69ss]

Also, when you buy parts from the builder/machine shop your paying for knowledge

I agree with this big time. I get so tired of going to businesses and the employees not knowing anything about what they sell. I can even think of a big store that sells tools (along with washers and dryers and jeans and shoes and treadmills and other items), and I have to explain to their employees what a certain tool is used for.

I don't mind paying extra for the knowledge and face to face service my engine builder gives me.

Quality service is, I think, rare these days. When it comes to a motor, quality service and expertise is worth every penny of the extra expense.

 

[Jebchevelle]

the builder doing my 468 let me bring parts in but when they were wrong I paid for it in some cases it would have been cheaper to have him get the parts. I learned alot from this and since I found this site I have saved myself a lot of trouble, time, and money. but I will say this he didnt get rich off my build and he has been very nice about it. but next time for the sake of my sanity and what not ill only get certain parts and let him get the rest. I also learned he dont like certain brand parts when the customer buys them. but when its his wallet paying he uses the cheaper stuff.

 

[R66SS427]

The problem in my little corner of the world is, the only decent machine shop is so set in his ways, he won't use a good (scat or Eagle) crank. He wants to use some club from NAPA and he's also a diehard oem type. "If its a GM then use GM parts." Hello.....I want a better set of rods. He is just sooooo far from the performance world thats its impossible to deal with him. Thats why most of the locals go the crate route. Call UltraStreet and be done with it.
Thats what I get for living in the middle of nowhere.

 

[Schurkey]

What is an appropriate profit margin for automotive parts? Where does "gouging" begin?

YEARS and years ago, I worked for a mass-merchandiser that happened to also run an "auto center".

Profit margin on "retail" automotive parts was--on average--about 50%.

Profit margin on ladies clothing was--at full retail price--about 200%, and sometimes considerably higher. A 1/2-off "clearance" sale was still generating a heck of a lot more profit per dollar than selling tires, batteries, and accessories (TBA)

No surprise, that merchandiser is no longer in the auto parts/repair business; the work space and shop hoists are now being used as warehouse space for dresses, underwear, coats and cosmetics that drive their profit margins up.

I bet profit margin on high-end electronics is 100%; possibly more.

I bet profit margin on furniture--real furniture, not Target or Wal-Mart junk--is 100% or more.

Most automotive parts are an absolute bargain in terms of sales price vs. cost--the profit margins are very low relative to other products. Which is why the Communists are getting more market share--cut the cost by 75% of "American-sourced" product, but drop the sales price by only 40% (or less)--and the reseller has just "found" at least 35% more profit per sales dollar.

 

[fridgeguy]

I bring my block to the machine shop, tell him what I want for hp and tq, he puts the combo together and orders the aparts and builds the engine. If I have my own parts such as an intake or something I picked up used or at a swap meet he will let me know if it will help or hinder the project and leaves it up to me if I want to use them. If he orders the parts then he owns the project and I always get what I want. Parts are always competitive, cheaper than if I bought them from Jegs or Summit (I always check and he's always cheaper). When I bought my AFR's I insisted that he talk to Tony Mamo and supply the heads. He charged me $100.00 over landed cost. I think its only fair that you let the machine shop supply the parts. If they are competitive then why not give him the mark up as opposed to Jegs or Summit. I run a heavy duty truck dealership shop myself and if a customer supplies a part then no warranty. If its the wrong part, which it usually is then it's $109.00 per hour while that truck is in the shop taking up my service bay. If I supply the parts then it 100% warranty, parts and labour for 1 year at any sister dealer in North America. It all boils down to ownership of the project. You supply the parts, you own the project. If the shop recommends and supplies the parts then they own the project.