Team Chevelle banner
Cancel
Create thread New Garage Forums

454 with muncie

Jump to Latest
41 - 60 of 74 Posts
#41 ·
You're killin me. Where in CA are you?

Where's your camera and learn to post pictures here.

Is that an externally balanced flywheel for a 454? Cant find the info on the site.

I have a list of parts but they will probably net the same results and require adjustment of the clutch fork angle.

I suspect your issues are result of an improperly set clutch fork angle. It's common on these cars because of the machine work done to the engines and the variations in supplied parts.

I totally don't understand how there would not be enough room for the proper throwout bearing.
 
#42 ·
Did you try measuring as outlined in the video in post #35? It is a matter of simple mathematics. If the space is smaller than allowed for the tob it is not going to work. Now something else may be causing the fingers on the pressure plate to be displaced but the physical space must be larger than the space allowed.
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
#43 ·
I'll step out of bounds and ask you a stupid question. The disc had a label that either said this "side to flywheel" or this "side out". Did you see this and mount the disc properly?.

Did you test fit the disc by holding it up to the bolted on flywheel? without the diaphragm bolted up.

Did it fit flush against the flywheel and can it turn without hitting the flywheel bolts?
 
Discussion starter · #45 ·
No the clutch did not hit the flywheel bolts.....the clutch says flywheel side and pressure plate side its in correct. the raised side of clutch is to pressure plate side

the only way it wheel hit flywheel bolts if i take the clutch from stock kit and try to install with summit flywheel which we know cant work it will hit flywheel bolts h
 
Discussion starter · #47 ·
Image
 

Attachments

#48 ·
KDW66 said:
No the clutch did not hit the flywheel bolts.....the clutch says flywheel side and pressure plate side its in correct. the raised side of clutch is to pressure plate side

the only way it wheel hit flywheel bolts if i take the clutch from stock kit and try to install with summit flywheel which we know cant work it will hit flywheel bolts h
Click to expand...
Cool. So we know the disc hit the bolts on the summit flywheel and the new flywheel has the proper clearance for the bolts. Also we know that the disc is properly installed.

I don't need all that measuring mumbo jumbo to set up a trans if you still have the adjustable pivot ball installed and access to the various throwout bearings, I also don't need the trans installed. I do need a short bearing installed and the bearing held against the pressure plate. From there I need to see pictures of the clutch fork showing the angle of the clutch fork. Take your phone and hold it up to the looking into the fork hole trying to line it up square with the pivot ball. Also a shot or 2 from directly below the fork looking upward, again trying to line up with the pivot ball front to back.. From there, if we get lucky and see what I need to see, we can make some adjustments. Make sure to hold the bearing against the fingers with the bearing centered on hole.

My guess is you are not near the car now because you said you were leaving.

How did you eave the car now? Is the trans installed?

Did you keep the various pivot balls and the adjustable one? How about the various length bearings.
 
#49 ·
These pictures are not for a Chevelle, just showing the picture I need to see. I know the frame will be in the way, just do the best you can by shoving that phone in there and snapping away. I don't need the trans in, just hold the bearing centered against the fingers.

The second picture shows us close to what we are looking for in our chevelles. That clutch fork angle needs to be about 7 degrees ahead of a line drawn perpendicular across the tip of the pivot ball. You need to ignore the forward bend in the clutch fork. This often throws guys off. Without this, the manual linkage will not work properly. You will end up with not enough throw to properly release the clutch and your clutch will release to close to the floor.
 

Attachments

#50 · (Edited)
This is a real stumper. One thing I did notice by going back and looking at your old pictures is that you have a Z-bar for a SB not a BB. That is one reason the clutch fork rod seems to be short. That being said I'm not sure but hopefully someone else will know. Would the crank set-up in a 454 be the same as a 396 for position into the bell housing. If so when I put my Autogear M22W in my car this past summer I put all brand new parts in also except for the flywheel which looked new. New parts included a repro 621 bellhousing, short GM ball stud, with the same clutch fork your using and a Zoom Clutch kit with the short TOB. I did no checking of ball stud heights and everything went together just fine. Seeing you have replaced everything and tried different things the only thing I can think of is there is something not right with the front bearing retainer on the transmission. When you get back post some pictures of the front of the transmission both from the front and side with the TOB all the way back on the retainer.
https://www.ss396.com/chevelle/FZ-3520.html
 
#51 ·
Also in your last batch of pictures #4 it looks like you have the adjustable pivot ball in. Your clutch fork looks like it will hit on the cutout in the bell housing before the TOB will go back enough to come off the PP fingers. Put the short pivot ball in which will bring back the TOB and also get the fork away from the cutout more too.
 
#52 ·
HKalin said:
One thing I did notice by going back and looking at your old pictures is that you have a Z-bar for a SB not a BB.
https://www.ss396.com/chevelle/FZ-3520.html
Click to expand...
I did not notice that how can you tell. Maybe I'm looking at the wrong picture,

There were 2 big block and 2 small block z bars uses in 66. The difference is the small blocks had a 8 1/8" inch main pipe and the big blocks have a 7 5/8". The early z bars had a straight upper lever and the later had a slightly bent lever to better line up with the clutch pedal rod.

I think good pictures and the knowledge of board members will resolve this issue. :thumbsup:

I'm leaving this here for later research.
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/33-...om/forums/33-transmission-driveline/363707-67-z-bars-clutch-rods-oem-repop.html
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/33-transmission-driveline/419201-67-4-speed-setups.html
 
#53 ·
DUTCH MAX HEADWORK said:
I did not notice that how can you tell. Maybe I'm looking at the wrong picture,

There were 2 big block and 2 small block z bars uses in 66. The difference is the small blocks had a 8 1/8" inch main pipe and the big blocks have a 7 5/8". The early z bars had a straight upper lever and the later had a slightly bent lever to better line up with the clutch pedal rod.

I think good pictures and the knowledge of board members will resolve this issue. :thumbsup:

I'm leaving this here for later research.
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/33-...om/forums/33-transmission-driveline/363707-67-z-bars-clutch-rods-oem-repop.html
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/33-transmission-driveline/419201-67-4-speed-setups.html
Click to expand...
The one in post #50 is supposedly a BB and this is a SB in the below link. Didn't know they had more than one style. Do you see what I'm saying about the clutch fork being to far in if he has the adjustable ball in the bellhousing. He will never get the TOB off the PP fingers because the fork will hit on the front side of the bellhousing cutout first. This is one of those things you wish you could see in person.
https://www.ss396.com/chevelle/FZ-3525.html
 
#54 ·
HKalin said:
The one in post #50 is supposedly a BB and this is a SB in the below link. Didn't know they had more than one style. Do you see what I'm saying about the clutch fork being to far in if he has the adjustable ball in the bellhousing. He will never get the TOB off the PP fingers because the fork will hit on the front side of the bellhousing cutout first. This is one of those things you wish you could see in person.
https://www.ss396.com/chevelle/FZ-3525.html
Click to expand...
I see it, but in that picture no throwout bearing is in the fork and it's not being held against the fingers, So I can't say at this point which ball he needs to use. That ball looks like it's screwed all the way in which would probably be too long as you are saying. Also note that these pictures are from the first go round from about a week back. He had the summit and mccloud parts. He's in totally different territory now. He threw auto parts pieces in and it changes the whole story now. For all I know a short pivot ball may work now. But it didn't work in his first go round. I couldn't help him then, without pictures the story is incomplete. His descriptions left me baffled.

The only adjustment available on these is for free play and it's made by adjusting the rod from the zbar to the clutch fork. By using the adjustable pivot ball we can further adjust the release points and achieve a proper clutch fork angle. My recommendation is to leave the adjustable in for now and back it away from the pressure plate because I'm pretty sure it will be needed to achieve proper angles for a properly functioning clutch.

There are so many variables in play here that just getting lucky rarely works anymore. Even best intentioned measuring of all parts often fails and you cant go by factory given specs of 4.75 pivotball height to crank mount and a .960 thickness flywheel. Other variables like disc thickness, height of cutch fingers, and the actual movement of those fingers can easily throw off clutch linkage geometry.
 
Discussion starter · #55 ·
ok i will get detailed pic of everthing on Tuesday when im back for now Hkalin just asked about aftermarket parts here are two picks of forks and two pics z bars

I have the short fork which OPGI says its a GM REPO the other is Chinese repo

I have the Z bar thats closer to the bottom of the blue paper, again its from OPGI which they say its a BBC remake of original 1966. the other they say is from a small block. both are repo from where? cant tell you just from opgi. i was told they get some of there parts from parts place.

I will post more detail pics on Tuesday
for future purposes who sales parts that are made correct.
 

Attachments

#56 ·
KDW66 said:
ok i will get detailed pic of everthing on Tuesday when im back for now Hkalin just asked about aftermarket parts here are two picks of forks and two pics z bars

I have the short fork which OPGI says its GM NOT REPO

I have the Z bar thats closer to the bottom of the blue paper, again its from OPGI which they say its a BBC remake of original 1966. the other they say is from a small block.

I will post more detail pics on Tuesday
Click to expand...
On the Zbar mount to the frame, the little bracket welded that holds the ball, did you install that or was it already there? If it was there, my confidence increases that you have the correct the correct first design reproduction 65-67 big block zbar (orig part #3872895). https://www.opgi.com/chevelle/PZ00806/ Pedal lever pipe to 2nd hole is 5 5/16". Fork lever from pipe to 2nd hole is 3 3/8". Main pipe overall length is 7 5/8 " Double check this when you get home.

You don't even have to consider the second design (orig part #33921049) because no one is repopping those so the only way to get one is find one 2nd hand. Good luck with that, they are drawing a pretty penny if they can be found. The only difference is a slight bend in the upper lever to offer a better angle to the pedal and also requires a different pedal to lever shaft.
 
Discussion starter · #57 ·
not i did not weld anything to the car as said in early post this is a 138 vin car with L in vin tage states its a 4 speed car. I have none of the original parts! it was a th400 in it when i purchased it 4 months ago.

was going to change to tremec but i cant get the muncie to work.

but i guess thats later first things first.
 
#59 ·
KDW66 said:
ok i will get detailed pic of everthing on Tuesday when im back for now Hkalin just asked about aftermarket parts here are two picks of forks and two pics z bars

I have the short fork which OPGI says its a GM REPO the other is Chinese repo

I have the Z bar thats closer to the bottom of the blue paper, again its from OPGI which they say its a BBC remake of original 1966. the other they say is from a small block. both are repo from where? cant tell you just from opgi. i was told they get some of there parts from parts place.

I will post more detail pics on Tuesday
for future purposes who sales parts that are made correct.
Click to expand...
From what I see the Z-bar is the one on the left and the clutch fork is the one on the right. This is a picture of my clutch fork coming out of the bell housing using the short ball stud and the right clutch fork in your picture. Do not go by the clutch linkage that is for my 71.
 

Attachments

#60 ·
DUTCH MAX HEADWORK said:
These pictures are not for a Chevelle, just showing the picture I need to see. I know the frame will be in the way, just do the best you can by shoving that phone in there and snapping away. I don't need the trans in, just hold the bearing centered against the fingers.

The second picture shows us close to what we are looking for in our chevelles. That clutch fork angle needs to be about 7 degrees ahead of a line drawn perpendicular across the tip of the pivot ball. You need to ignore the forward bend in the clutch fork. This often throws guys off. Without this, the manual linkage will not work properly. You will end up with not enough throw to properly release the clutch and your clutch will release to close to the floor.
Click to expand...

Al, what engine/transes/bell's are these? These look like something that could work for a project that I started.
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
41 - 60 of 74 Posts
About this Discussion
73 Replies
15 Participants
Last post:
HKalin
Team Chevelle
posts
5.3M
members
131K
Since
1998
A forum community dedicated to Chevrolet Chevelle owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about restorations, builds, performance, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, maintenance, and more!
Full Forum Listing
Explore Our Forums
Bench Racing Performance Engine Chevelle Tech Body Shop