[1968 hot rod]

That’s funny my wife just asked me if I was going there today.
I was at Smokey Mountain a few days ago.
Honestly thank you.
I don’t look unless I’m gonna buy and I have weapons I haven’t shot yet..

 

[cstraub]

That’s funny my wife just asked me if I was going there today.
I was at Smokey Mountain a few days ago.
Honestly thank you.
I don’t look unless I’m gonna buy and I have weapons I haven’t shot yet..

Dad's monthly issue of AR was like the Sears Wish Book each month for me as a kid. I told myself some day..... Don't get to shoot much anymore with my schedule, but still like to buy a couple here and there.

 

[cstraub]

Aren't those crate engines supposed to remain sealed from the factory in order to be legal on the race track?

Interesting discussion. Very hard to find folks to do good work on ANYTHING anymore.

My customer is a certified crate engine rebuilder by GM.

 

[71malibuu]

The customer paid $700 for the work that was done. Block can not be used for turbo application that customer was building. Only way to fix it is to sleeve it and sleeves and installing them is $2200. Custom has an OEM block. It will be prepped and cos of work is under $1000. In addition we will put pin oilers in it for an additional cost.

I’d say that is very reasonable pricing considering your equipment. Silly question, why don’t you offer long and short block configurations 468-496-532-565 that people can just click and buy? No demand? Or is the ls stuff gaining in popularity to much? I know from experience that you can get a long block or a set of heads from a million different suppliers, but what’s the point if it all has to be taken apart and checked anyway? I can’t be the only one that would like to buy a set of heads that are actually ready to bolt on...or a short block that actually has square lifter bores and cylinders...

 

[cstraub]

I’d say that is very reasonable pricing considering your equipment. Silly question, why don’t you offer long and short block configurations 468-496-532-565 that people can just click and buy? No demand? Or is the ls stuff gaining in popularity to much? I know from experience that you can get a long block or a set of heads from a million different suppliers, but what’s the point if it all has to be taken apart and checked anyway? I can’t be the only one that would like to buy a set of heads that are actually ready to bolt on...or a short block that actually has square lifter bores and cylinders...

We have work coming in from all over the US and Europe. The machining is what we are focusing on. Right now the shortage of parts is what has our industry and many in turmoil. Had a machine shop customer call me yesterday to tell me he was a couple months from closing the doors. No parts to finish jobs. Once the supply chain gets back to normal, and I don't see that happening in less than a year, we will have short block unassembled packages for the DIY guy and top end packages for the DIY guy.

 

[MikeN]

My customer is a certified crate engine rebuilder by GM.

Interesting - a racer would get a more competitive engine by buying a re-man as opposed to new from GM.

 

[nashville beth]

we will have short block unassembled packages for the DIY guy and top end packages for the DIY guy.

NICE !

 

[1968 hot rod]

I guess I’ll check out buds gun store in about 15 minutes.
Wearing a Jesel valve train hat

 

[nashville beth]

I guess I’ll check out buds gun store in about 15 minutes.
Wearing a Jesel valve train hat

Ammo is starting to get back in supply (a little). Last time I stopped there it was empty !

 

[Brutledge]

I've had many different experiences with good vs bad block machining.
Just because a shop has a lot of high dollar, high tech equipment does not guarantee they can produce high dollar high tech results.

i can agree with this. The common misconception from alot of people that just dont know, arent machinists, or parrot what ‘they heard’ (and even SOME old machinists who havnt kept up) is that you just push a button and twiddle your thumbs with cnc machining. I work in an iso certified cnc shop (non automotive machining industry, so busy! just cant keep up where i am currently!) and the truth is manual and cnc are more the same than they are different. I see ansolutely no downsides whatsoever with the modern cnc machine/block probing way to do it chris is talking about..

BUT, to your point, yes, no matter if a person is using a bridgeport or a Vari axis, if the machinist isnt paying attention youve just scrapped a part...or fxxked a machine that cost more than my house.

in general, a big expensive cnc machine can make a way bigger mess of the part or the machine itself (with rapid positioning of tools, incorrect tool lengths, not measuring tools, calling up wrong pockets, incorrect tool descriptions, wrong cutter choice, not setting appropriate barriers, not rigid enough setup etc or simply being distracted and forgetting to carry the 1 while writing your program) than you can on manual stuff, in general, especially if you just push the button and walk away like people all think you do with cnc instead of paying attention and monitoring it. Throw in the loud noise and viewing window obscured with coolant spray and its often already too late when something goes wrong.
A persons ability to measure and the tools they have to measure after whatever way the work was done is another variable. Ive known people who tear strips off you after making a mistake measuring your work behind you.

But, having said all this, a shop that invests in that high tech of equipmemt, are likely to invest good money in the right people competent enough to run them.... its more highly skilled than people think.
So yes there are many variables that affect the work quality regardless of the shops “state of the art-ness” ... it comes back to the human element.
Damn humans.

 

[Aaron]

Question: With all the millions of dollars in this area of the economy. If this hobby dried up for whatever the reason. Where would that money go in the economy? Ideas?

Just what would be consider good business and bad business?

 

[Brutledge]

Question: With all the millions of dollars in this area of the economy. If this hobby dried up for whatever the reason. Where would that money go in the economy? Ideas?

Just what would be consider good business and bad business?

id spend my disposable income car fund on an N gauge model railway!

 

[71malibuu]

We have work coming in from all over the US and Europe. The machining is what we are focusing on. Right now the shortage of parts is what has our industry and many in turmoil. Had a machine shop customer call me yesterday to tell me he was a couple months from closing the doors. No parts to finish jobs. Once the supply chain gets back to normal, and I don't see that happening in less than a year, we will have short block unassembled packages for the DIY guy and top end packages for the DIY guy.

That’s fantastic. If you offer those packages at a price point that makes sence I know that I’d be inline for a few things. I’m glad to hear it. I hate to say it, but I got awfully close to pulling the trigger on a blue print short block and long block simply because they have things now. And at a good price. I may keep my setup until the dust settles...

 

[steelcomp]

i can agree with this. The common misconception from alot of people that just dont know, arent machinists, or parrot what ‘they heard’ (and even SOME old machinists who havnt kept up) is that you just push a button and twiddle your thumbs with cnc machining. I work in an iso certified cnc shop (non automotive machining industry, so busy! just cant keep up where i am currently!) and the truth is manual and cnc are more the same than they are different. I see ansolutely no downsides whatsoever with the modern cnc machine/block probing way to do it chris is talking about..

BUT, to your point, yes, no matter if a person is using a bridgeport or a Vari axis, if the machinist isnt paying attention youve just scrapped a part...or fxxked a machine that cost more than my house.

in general, a big expensive cnc machine can make a way bigger mess of the part or the machine itself (with rapid positioning of tools, incorrect tool lengths, not measuring tools, calling up wrong pockets, incorrect tool descriptions, wrong cutter choice, not setting appropriate barriers, not rigid enough setup etc or simply being distracted and forgetting to carry the 1 while writing your program) than you can on manual stuff, in general, especially if you just push the button and walk away like people all think you do with cnc instead of paying attention and monitoring it. Throw in the loud noise and viewing window obscured with coolant spray and its often already too late when something goes wrong.
A persons ability to measure and the tools they have to measure after whatever way the work was done is another variable. Ive known people who tear strips off you after making a mistake measuring your work behind you.

But, having said all this, a shop that invests in that high tech of equipmemt, are likely to invest good money in the right people competent enough to run them.... its more highly skilled than people think.
So yes there are many variables that affect the work quality regardless of the shops “state of the art-ness” ... it comes back to the human element.
Damn humans.

I think there are machinists, and there are...well...others. A GOOD machinist has a mechanical aptitude. It's something you really can't teach someone. They get it. Machining is a personal thing. You can't be a good machinist if you don't give a crap, are lazy, just in it for the money or just not mechanically inclined. I worked in a shop where I was helping a young guy learn about engines. He was a fresh out of school machinist and very talented, just zero experience but he got it. Mostly what I tried to instill in him was the quality of his work and the importance of attention to detail. He had the desire and the mechanical aptitude, and he caught on very quickly. On the other hand, in the same shop, there was a "machinist", older guy who had been doing this for a LONG time, lot of experience, had his own shop at one time. He got a bunch of brand new very expensive CNC equipment and one day he was trying to machine a cam tunnel on the vertical cnc (block) mill. I asked him a very fundamental question about what he was doing...went completely over his head. I had to think of a way to re-ask my question in a manner that he could understand (without getting him all frustrated and on the defensive). He finally got it...I think...but he didn't get it. Never will. He can operate those machines till the cows come home and as long as the machine does it's job, everything will be OK. He's a machine operator. The BEST machines still need someone to work them, monitor them and MAKE them produce the results they're capable of. The shop I work out of has NO cnc equipment, yet does machine work for some of the best names in the business in the highest levels of racing. Profilometer numbers are a pet peeve of mine the way some people throw them around as if they had the slightest understanding of what they really mean or how they were derived. It's shops like I work out of that have honed a thousand blocks on a manual hone (still using stones) over the years and come up with cylinder finishes that work through hundreds and hundreds of hours of testing. Never a profilometer in sight but buy a big expensive cnc machine, get some profilometer numbers and suddenly you're freekin Jack Roush.
But I digress...

 

[BillK]

I think there are machinists, and there are...well...others.
.
.

Very well stated Scott. And no matter what anyone says I think you are born with the aptitude. You might be able to teach someone to be a decent machinist (or mechanic etc) but the really good ones have it in their genes.

Its just like musicians. You can learn to be a decent guitar player but the really good one are born with it. Any you can give a great guitarist a Walmart guitar and he will sound better than a mediocre guy on a Gibson

 

[blue_69_malibu]

id spend my disposable income car fund on an N gauge model railway!

C'mon now....it's O Gauge....or No Gauge!!

 

[Aml383]

i can agree with this. The common misconception from alot of people that just dont know, arent machinists, or parrot what ‘they heard’ (and even SOME old machinists who havnt kept up) is that you just push a button and twiddle your thumbs with cnc machining. I work in an iso certified cnc shop (non automotive machining industry, so busy! just cant keep up where i am currently!) and the truth is manual and cnc are more the same than they are different. I see ansolutely no downsides whatsoever with the modern cnc machine/block probing way to do it chris is talking about..

BUT, to your point, yes, no matter if a person is using a bridgeport or a Vari axis, if the machinist isnt paying attention youve just scrapped a part...or fxxked a machine that cost more than my house.

in general, a big expensive cnc machine can make a way bigger mess of the part or the machine itself (with rapid positioning of tools, incorrect tool lengths, not measuring tools, calling up wrong pockets, incorrect tool descriptions, wrong cutter choice, not setting appropriate barriers, not rigid enough setup etc or simply being distracted and forgetting to carry the 1 while writing your program) than you can on manual stuff, in general, especially if you just push the button and walk away like people all think you do with cnc instead of paying attention and monitoring it. Throw in the loud noise and viewing window obscured with coolant spray and its often already too late when something goes wrong.
A persons ability to measure and the tools they have to measure after whatever way the work was done is another variable. Ive known people who tear strips off you after making a mistake measuring your work behind you.

But, having said all this, a shop that invests in that high tech of equipmemt, are likely to invest good money in the right people competent enough to run them.... its more highly skilled than people think.
So yes there are many variables that affect the work quality regardless of the shops “state of the art-ness” ... it comes back to the human element.
Damn humans.

The tools don't make the man in ANY trade .
I've been a residential builder for many years and I saw and learned very early on that some guys can take 800 worth of tools and make it look like a million and then there's guys that have 15 grand in tools and make it look like an 800 lol
No difference here .
There are builders and then there are assemblers in both trades and some guys aren't neither. They're salesmen.

 

[Aml383]

Very well stated Scott. And no matter what anyone says I think you are born with the aptitude. You might be able to teach someone to be a decent machinist (or mechanic etc) but the really good ones have it in their genes.

Its just like musicians. You can learn to be a decent guitar player but the really good one are born with it. Any you can give a great guitarist a Walmart guitar and he will sound better than a mediocre guy on a Gibson

Absolutely ! It's a touch and a feel and some guys got it and some guys ain't ; not to say that hard work, persistence and determination alone without much talent havnt been the product of big success either though.

 

[Aml383]

I think there are machinists, and there are...well...others. A GOOD machinist has a mechanical aptitude. It's something you really can't teach someone. They get it. Machining is a personal thing. You can't be a good machinist if you don't give a crap, are lazy, just in it for the money or just not mechanically inclined. I worked in a shop where I was helping a young guy learn about engines. He was a fresh out of school machinist and very talented, just zero experience but he got it. Mostly what I tried to instill in him was the quality of his work and the importance of attention to detail. He had the desire and the mechanical aptitude, and he caught on very quickly. On the other hand, in the same shop, there was a "machinist", older guy who had been doing this for a LONG time, lot of experience, had his own shop at one time. He got a bunch of brand new very expensive CNC equipment and one day he was trying to machine a cam tunnel on the vertical cnc (block) mill. I asked him a very fundamental question about what he was doing...went completely over his head. I had to think of a way to re-ask my question in a manner that he could understand (without getting him all frustrated and on the defensive). He finally got it...I think...but he didn't get it. Never will. He can operate those machines till the cows come home and as long as the machine does it's job, everything will be OK. He's a machine operator. The BEST machines still need someone to work them, monitor them and MAKE them produce the results they're capable of. The shop I work out of has NO cnc equipment, yet does machine work for some of the best names in the business in the highest levels of racing. Profilometer numbers are a pet peeve of mine the way some people throw them around as if they had the slightest understanding of what they really mean or how they were derived. It's shops like I work out of that have honed a thousand blocks on a manual hone (still using stones) over the years and come up with cylinder finishes that work through hundreds and hundreds of hours of testing. Never a profilometer in sight but buy a big expensive cnc machine, get some profilometer numbers and suddenly you're freekin Jack Roush.
But I digress...

100 percent and the distinction is a very important one . Really getting it versus not getting it . I see it every day in my own trade.
Guys who can produce and can assemble but they just dont have that "it" .

Hand one guy a 1500 dollar sliding compound mitre saw and tell him you want x produced .
Hand another guy a $49 throw away circular saw and tell him you want x produced and if the guy with the $49 saw has "it" and the guy with the $1500 slider doesn't have "it" then yep you guessed what happened with "it" lol
The feel . The touch . The finess .

But another important factor is that to the undiscerning typical layman the guy who shows up at his house with the $1500 slider set up is the one he'll hire 9 out of 10 over the guy who shows with the black and decker pecker wrecker lol because perception is reality.
Problem is perception ISNT reality.
Its smoke and mirror bullshit lol And then they woke up with a lighter pocket and a so so job

 

[Aml383]

What I got was a 565 that needed valve springs after 26 passes that I could no longer trust to stay together. It is now at BES so Tony Bischoff can make it trustworthy and do what it was originally supposed to do. Go 8.90s -9.0s. That 565 beast lasted a total of 26 passes. Oh and did you know what else I got? A useless 427 that BES also had to correct the mistakes on and a set of heads that had to be scrapped and then a long wait on a set of AFRs...Cool stuff huh? LOL.

wow sounds like somebody saw you comin huh ? And twice. Man IDK .
Catch me once Shame on you ...catch me twice shame on me .
You sure this other has it straight?? How many runs since then ?