If you take all the SS stuff off your car it's still an SS.

It was an SS car.

If the LS6 was taken out of the car and was lost, it's still an LS6 car.

Once GM printed that sheet, made the car it became something. You can't change something made by the creator, it will then, now, and forever will be an LS6 car.

Just like my car was a Malibu.
Just like my car was a bench seat car.
Just like my car was Cortez silver.

To anyone that desires these things, the car has a better value.

Why does an SS have a higher value than a Malibu?

Why does an ls6 car have a higher value than one that isn't?

People desire that and if you think for one minute you would ask an SS price for an ls6, you're lying. Money is made on sentimental desires, and this is just another example.

 

People desire that and if you think for one minute you would ask an SS price for an ls6, you're lying. Money is made on sentimental desires, and this is just another example.

thank you for proving my point...

 

That's not what I'm saying at all, my original post, I think it was the second to the last sentence even says that. Because he has a build sheet, which is believe to be original to the car, that he has a '70 SS 454 car that was originally optioned with the LS6 engine.

The point I'm trying to make that once the original engine in that car is gone there is no residual evidence left behind to support that the car came with the LS6 option. However, there is SS 454 badging that remained on the car but you are left to guess, and find a way to substantiate that it was either a LS5 or LS6. But more so, you won't get LS6 money for a car that doesn't still have the original, born with, LS6 in it, even if was born with one from the factory. At this point it falls into the same category as all the other non numbers matching Chevelle SS'. The only additional value that can be assigned to the vehicle will be the next buyer.

But you should know this, there are tons of Chevelles out there claiming to be an original LS6 optioned car, because it's next to impossible to prove or disprove. So the money isn't there unless you have the original engine with the partial VIN still in the car. LS6 money is reserved for only those cars that still have the original LS6 engine in it. Otherwise, all you have is a great story...

 

If the car is documented (i.e. build sheet, POP, GM car shipper, etc) then it is pretty conclusive how the car was originally equipped. That's the only pedigree many/most musclecar buyers are concerned with, and the market value increases accordingly with the originality of the drivetrain.

I think some of you guys are making this more complicated than it needs to be. The market dictates that definitive docs add value to a Chevelle even if the original drivetrain is long gone. It may not make sense to some people, and you may think it's absurd, but it's borne out in the market. Just spend a week looking around and you'll see....

 

I agree 100% with your last post. A documented '70 SS 454 optioned with the LS6 engine, and still retains that original numbers matching LS6 engine will bring a premium. In fact, to my knowledge it is the most valuable Chevelle out there. However, this thread is "Value of an LS6 WITHOUT the LS6", which is what I was addressing...

 

Agree.

But the title of the thread leaves off a the most important question. Can it be proven which is what I am addressing. I agree, without ANY proof its just fluff. If you read my sentences, I said words like "known"...some seem to argue that even if its "known" the fact that the LS6 is gone just makes it a normal SS. Which is hogwash, That's my argument.

 

Using the logic here I guess if you take a car like the one we are talking about and strip it of its LS6 components it becomes an SS, Strip it of its SS components and it reverts to a sport coupe. Then strip it of any Chevrolet ID and in the end all you really have is a Body By Fisher. Ray Charles can have better luck rolling dice than someone trying to change another's opinion on this topic. In the end the person that writes the check establishes value and the previous argument is worthless as there are no true used cars that are exactly the same. Hell two brand new ones with the same MSRP won't either. Car value is very subjective, much like women.

 

i would of been very happy finding the ls6 build sheet ! i would build it to the specs of the build sheet ! which makes it a 1970 chevelle ls6 with build sheet nom using all gm parts/specs or maybe just go the other direction and add all the baddest parts for some real fun and enjoy the hell out of it ! either way call it what you will but it would still be a chevelle ! :thumbsup:

 

That build sheet makes it worth a lot more than a comparable SS without the original engine, to the right person.

Like it or not, the paper is the key.

 

Honestly, it doesn't matter what I think it is. It matters what the buyer thinks its worth. The rest is just speculation..

 

If it can be proven through documentation I agree that it can be said it once was an LS6 car. I also agree that anyone that can prove that (also many that cant) will absolutely mention that ,in bold letters, in any advertisement for sale.
Furthermore I agree people actively seek out the king of Chevelles and want to retain that former glory.
However I would be willing to bet if we could wind the clock back to the early 70's and were reading ads in Hemmings or even a local newspaper and came across one for a wrecked/blown or otherwise incomplete 1970 Chevelle SS that formerly had a 450 hp engine, there would be no mention of it being an LS6 car. I would be willing to bet it would only be advertised as an SS. It may mention that it had a 454 if the engine was in place but blown.
Calling these LS6 cars only came into fashion once they started to become somewhat rare and valueable. It only dawned on people to call an engine less SS Chevelle an LS6 car when they realized they could sell the remaining shell for greater money if they pointed out that particular car used to be a King of Chevelles.
It can even be said that a car originally optioned with an LS6 engine can forever be known as born as an LS6 car. But remove what made it an LS6 car and now I believe it is only a former car. Put a 454 cu in 450 hp engine in that car and one could call it a nom ls6 car. But what i cannot agree with is calling an engine less car or a car that has had the components removed that made it an LS6 a present LS6 car. That is my opinion.

 

So out of curiosity, the guys on here that feel that "a factory LS6 car is not an LS6 car anymore without the original LS6 engine", would you also say that a person who has a real, original LS6 engine could put it in a regular Chevelle and truthfully call it an LS6 Chevelle and be able to command LS6 car pricing? Seems that if you want to claim that the engine is what makes the car what it is and is what makes it valuable, that this should apply also. I'd like to hear your opinions.

 

Nick, to some degree everyone that has commented in this thread is correct, to some degree... The problem with the this discussion is that a baseline set of facts has not been determined and agreed upon prior to discussing the topic. Opinions are expressed based upon one's perception of what an LS6 is or what that means. So, if we could eliminate perception and discuss just the facts I believe that a consensus could be reached as to how it creates value. So to move the conversation along to a meaningful end the first thing that would to be done is develop the baseline facts, agree upon them, and then discuss the topic as it relates to the facts. This way everyone is talking about the same thing. For example...

1. LS6 is not a car, it is an engine option. If in 1970 you were to walk into a Chevrolet dealership and ask for a LS6 the people their would politely point you to the parts department where you could order a LS6 and in a few weeks you would take possession of an engine, not a car.

2. A LS6 engine does not create the escalated value in and of it's self. You can't take a period correct LS6 engine and put it in just any 1970 Chevelle and get 1970 Chevelle SS, LS6 optioned money. The extra value here would be that one hopes to find the original car to reunite this enigne with, or for those that want to make there documented LS6 optioned SS closer to original.

3. The LS6 engine was available in a Chevelle in 1970 if you checked the Z15 AND the OPTIONAL LS6 box. If you only checked the Z15 option box you would get the base engine, the LS5 engine. The car is the same but you had a option to outfit it with one of two engines, if made aware of the choice.

4. While the buyer ultimately determines value of anything sold, there are some industry standards that assist those in determining or assigning value. It boils down to a combination of 'boxes checked', retention of those original parts in the original car, and documentation to support the car. That's where the money lies, not just in a car, or just in an engine, or just in a piece of paper. And because the dollar amounts being paid for true, documented cars has gone up so much, the bar has also been raised in what is required in order to prove or support the car.

So, the real money lies in a combination of things that can be proven. However buyers have proven through the years that there is some in cars that have some but not all of the items discussed in item 4 above. And that is the tricky part to say the least, what is the value if you are missing one or more of those ingredients.

But to the puristist, and or the collector, the 'hole grail' of Chevelles is a 1970 Chevelle that was purchased, or built, with the Z15 option and the LS6 optioned checked, and it still retains that original LS6 engine with the partial VIN stamped on it, and documentation (i.e. build sheets, window sticker, protect-o-plate, etc.) the car and the options it included. That's top dollar. Some will say that if you have a car and an engine and the stamped VIN is the same that this is good enough. However, because of the frequency of fakes out there some may require the additional documentation in order to get 'top dollar'.

But as you can see, there is no one answer for all. It's a matter of perception and the value placed upon your perception of what constitutes value, which is more subjective. But if you're in it as an investment, the next buyer isn't buying and willing to pay top dollar for your perception but what you can prove.

However, some may argue that an LS6 optioned Z15 Chevelle value is bumped somewhat by accepted perception more so than rarity because there were actually fewer LS5 optioned Z15 Chevelles produced than the aforementioned, but, since the LS6 optioned engine was the highest rated horsepower option available in a standard production Chevelle, it derived more value than the more rare, but less powerful, LS5 optioned car.

 

I agree with all of your points there, but I think #2 and part of #1 is what has sparked so much of this discussion. I would also agree that just owning a true, original, VIN stamped LS6 engine is only one piece of that puzzle.

However, the other large piece as you stated is in fact the car itself. I would not look down on an original LS6 equipped car that no longer sports it's original engine. Obviously everyone agrees that this is not as valuable or collectible as an all original example, but I would say that it's a part of the car that is what makes it different from all the others out there, and thus holds a higher value, even if you consider it a 'once was'. After all, that's a very large part of what drives people to buy these cars, we all are paying for the history associated with each individual one. Some such as yourself may not feel as this is a good determinator for the cars value, but the market has proven that premiums will be paid for cars that were originally equipped with these parts.

Some great examples of this are things such as original 6 cylinder vs original 8 cylinder cars, original 4 speed cars vs original automatic cars, and factory A/C equipped cars vs heater only cars. Even if all of this "desirable" equipment is no longer with the car, everything else equal, people will in general pay more for the car with the better OE options even if none of the original parts are there for either example, and even though we know that sixes can easily be swapped for V8s, 4 speeds can be easily converted to, and A/C can be added. That's because a great majority of buyers care about the cars history and what the car originally came with. You can take an inline 6 car and deck it out with a V8 engine and plenty of desirable options and make a very, very nice car out of it, but I feel a lot of knowledgable buyers would still feel that less of a premium should be paid because the cars original history was that of an inline 6 car.

I think the inverse is also true for more valuable cars such as the 1970 LS6 car being discussed here. Even though the original engine is gone, the original history of the car makes it much more desirable versus a run of the mill Chevelle also missing its original engine. Anything that makes the car stand out and sets it apart from the rest will always raise the value.

Point is, people will pay for history and that has been well shown in the market for these cars. I do not think that a 1970 Chevelle originally equipped with an LS6 would deviate from this at all.

 

Nick, you may be surprised about this, but, I agree with you 100% and have always felt that way. I firmly believe, that when proven, all cars are what they were born as from the factory. My issue is how they are referred to, like a LS6 Chevelle, when couple with statements like 'so when the engine is gone it is no more valuable than a Malibu'. The car IS a Malibu, a Malibu that has 1 of 2 SS options checked, and 1 of the engine options checked. They are not separate makes or models. The premium they bring is up to the buyer based upon the options she was born with and the level of originality that remains.

In fact, when I was shopping for a '66 I was specifically looking for a Malibu because I knew I wanted to do several modifications to the car. I would not buy a SS, even one without the numbers matching engine, and do to it what I did to my Malibu. I do believe that there is a elevated value for these cars and would rather someone else have that car instead of me modifying it...

 

I agree with that point too, but I guess I don't put as much emphasis on it. If someone refers to an LS6 Chevelle, I'll know what they're talking about even though I know the "LS6" nomenclature was never actually part of the Chevelle name or an actual model in the lineup. Completely correct or not, I think that's basically the car world version of "brand naming", i.e., referring to any brand tissues as Kleenex, any brand of lube as WD-40, all Gen III Chevy engines as LS engines, etc. I just see it as an easy identifier that people can quickly relate to.

However, your second point hits the nail on the head, I purchase my cars exactly the same way. I'm the guy that actually prefers low end cars, or ones missing much of the original equipment, since I'm buying the car to build exactly how I want to anyway. I personally put enough value on original or numbers matching cars, even undesirable ones, that I wouldn't want to rip apart one of the already few survivors there are left just to build another cookie cutter hot rod. I prefer to keep the higher end or desirable cars as they are, and instead tear into the less wanted or mostly non-original ones. I'm sure that is not a common way of thinking!

 

I aint had a lot of book learnen or fetchen up. What is an LS-6?
Is that a car or an Engine? ( Its not a motor, Motors need an outside source of power for it to operate)
If the LS-6 Engine is removed or gone from the body it was attached to, So, Does that mean the tin & Chassis are still called an LS-6. Now what does the buildsheet mean? Would it be OK to now call this empty chassis,, A Super Sport without an engine? Did Chevrolet use a Special Chassis for the LS-6 engines? This is kinda sorta like trying to " UN-RING " a bell.
I still like " Sonny & Cher "-- The beat goes on ! Gosh, gotta keep this going, Its only 2017 !
bob
Is it possible to have a LS-5- and a half? An LS-5 with solid lifters, Would that make it a LS-5 and a half? >

 

Is it possible to have a LS-5- and a half? An LS-5 with solid lifters, Would that make it a LS-5 and a half? >

what about an LS6 with an LS7 camshaft-does that make an LS6 and a half?