[Shawn Gilbert]

Tony,
First of all I am asking this in the public forum so that your reply and my scenario may help others.
I currently have a 505 with AFR 325 CNC Chambered option at 116cc using the standard 18cc SRP Piston for about 10.5 to 1 compression. Also setting on my combo is a Huge Dart Intake and AED ProStreet Dominator pushing through 2" x 3.5 cheapo Hooker headers. The cam is a 60234 Voodoo Solid Roller ( actualy Harold and Dacaman had to straighten it and regrind ) 255/263 at .050 with .680 lift ( .016 lash ) at 110. Pushing through a turbo 400 with a 4400 RPM Pro Edge converter and 4.10 gears on a 28x10.5 but I am Huge so my car weighs almost 3800lbs

Once I finally got my car to hook I have began to notice the lack of TQ compared to other combinations of a similar design out 60fting me even with the nose up. My car has ran a best of 10.18 @ 131.57 but usually traps 130.50 ish using Hoosier Radials and a 1.45 60ft. i dont run my engine up in RPMs shift before 6k usually.

This brings me to the purpose of this post I have began to look at what is mismatched on my car to improve ET numbers in the RPM range I am operating within. It occurs to me I need to do 1 of 2 things run a more aggressive combo that peaks a bit higher and takes advantage of the 325s.

1. Little more compression.
2. Larger Cam ( to take advantage of the 325 ports )
3. Looser stall or go to a more race oriented 8" instead of 9.5
4. lower gear ratio
5. Larger headers
6. turn more RPM through each gear and through the traps with the change to the combo.

Or optimize my current combo to make more TQ in the RPM range i am currently using it.

1. Intake change-the captain insano Dart intake is probably getting efficient about the time i shift. Was still looking at trying the Merlin that is basically a 4150 intake with the Dominator adapter machined in.
2. Depending on intake purchase I might finally be able to provide the coveted apples to apples 4500/Aftermarket tuned Dominator vs 4150 with Aftermarket tuned 1000hp comparo we have all wanted.
3. try some 1.8 rockers to get a bit more lift out of my current combo....
4. Swap to 4150 1000hp setup.

So now i jump on the forums and I see you have these new wonderful heads and I cant help but think this would seemingly be MY holy grail. The first thing to remember is that my car is a pump gas true full interior uncut street car which is very important to me. So now I am thinking.

1. Sell 325s
2. Buy 290's CNC chambers.
3. Ill get increased compression from the change from 116cc to 112cc combustion chambers which should put me about 11 to 1. And yes i remember you TELLING me to aim a bit higher on CR but I was being conservative as I truly like to drive my car around and we almost have it painted so will be doing even more so. Its not a daily driver but i like to fire it up and drive it around town much more than taking it to the strip ( i mainly go just to hang out with my racing buddies ).
3. The 290s would seem to match my current cams net lift of .662 and probably be more efficient across the entire usable RPM range I use along with being more likely to move 3800lbs more efficiently with the conservative power train i have.
4. If they dont make a proper 4500 intake for your new ovals then i do have access to a nice ProSystems 1000HP 4150.
5. Keep my 2" headers and current exhaust as they are probably a much better match.

Those heads would just seem to match my combo better, I really feel like I can stand more TQ and based on metrics from similar cars I am under performing in the first 330ft or so. It just seems like in my mind i would gain a little HP due to the compression increase or keep the current level at the very least while simultaneously increasing TQ and AVG HP across the entire narrow RPM band I use my motor. My goal is 9.99 on 93...... Your new heads have REALLY thrown a monkey wrench into my plans and I very much like the IDEA of them to accomplish my goals. I have not turned a wrench on my engine since i built it and it has served me well so far I have been very happy with it but i would like to hit 9.99 if that means more aggressive so be it ( as i notice my cam is a bit on the small side compared to similar combos that hit the 9s ) but the thought of doing it conservatively with a more efficient combo REALLY appeals to me.......

 

[Tom Mobley]

can you try a 4150 and manifold? borrow it from somebody? maybe build a little more velocity in the manifold?

4400/4.10/28" it doesn't seem that far off with the 325s. or vice-versa.

 

[Shawn Gilbert]

HEHE yea that was actually why i came here to post ideas about manifold choice because i KNOW my intake is a terrible match to not only the heads themselves ( AS Tony has stated to me before ) but the entire combo as a whole. THEN i read the AFR oval post....I cant find a TD 4150 to borrow though....

 

[trmnatr]

HEHE yea that was actually why i came here to post ideas about manifold choice because i KNOW my intake is a terrible match to not only the heads themselves ( AS Tony has stated to me before ) but the entire combo as a whole. THEN i read the AFR oval post....I cant find a TD 4150 to borrow though....

In my opinion a Dominator is for high rpm launchs/loose converters, I dont care if its a small block or big block

It needs signal, I have a Pro Systems Dominator XE1100 (1082cfm) for my 331 but it is built for 5000rpm+ launchs, No less but i run a 6100rpm stall converter with 5.38's and 28" tires

In my opinion you need 4.11's (which you have) with the dominator and a looser converter to leave at a high enough rpm, I would think no less than 3500rpm launch on that engine with about a 4000 converter, I bet if you video it you can hear the engine pulling down and not accelerating until 5' to 10' off the line

Also i have played with "certain" carburetors that were .2 to .3 slower than others, tuned every way possible and nothing, still slower (the big difference in ET was lost off the line)

Borrow a carburetor of a similar hp/rpm engine

I think a 1000 Pro Systems / 1000hp would be great, maybe even annulat boosters with the small cam

 

[Shawn Gilbert]

I really am finally of the mindset on my conservative combo now that i can dead hook ( which i never thought it would ) and launching just off idle that the Dominator while well tuned and unbelievably tame on the street it holding my ET back on the first half of the track. MY cousin has a Pro Systems HP1000 based billet metering blocked carb that is setting on the shelf I can try and thats really what i had in my mind to do.

As a second thought I was also like you guys thinking if i kept the dominator i might need to from the tight working very well 9.5 4400 ( so good at part throttle lockup ) to a looser 8 inch if i stay with the dominator. However the holy grail would be the keep the powertrain conservative like it is and still gain the ET.

I guess when it boils down too it since i at the very least need to try another intake i should buy one thats 4150 where i can try a intake more suited to my RPM band while simultaneously allowing me to try a good 4150 intake/carb combo in its entirety. If it works much better I could sell mine or maybe even trade him since his setup is for a straight race car launching off a transbrake and i am foot braking.

Id like to get these up about another foot!!

 

[badrad]

What about trying a Edelbrock C-454? The dual plane is good to ~7000 on a 540 and should alleviate any issues down low if your heads are too big. IMHO the heads are fine but will offer the ability to grow.

 

[o6r1man]

I would ditch the dart intake get a Vitor jr 4150 use your cousins prosystems first. See what that gets ya if your still not there I would get ahold of one of the guys on here about a bigger cam with those heads I bet it would be happy turning 7,000 rpms. To get your 60s down I would call ATI and talk to them about a treemaster converter I bet they could help your 60s out with a harder hiting converter.

 

[o6r1man]

Id like to get these up about another foot!!


I would get some santhuffs springs for the front BOB WEST's car runs about the same as your and he all but drags the back bumper when he leaves. He said that it would pull the wheels before the santhuffs but it went NUTS after he installed them.

 

[Shawn Gilbert]

I would ditch the dart intake get a Vitor jr 4150 use your cousins prosystems first. See what that gets ya if your still not there I would get ahold of one of the guys on here about a bigger cam with those heads I bet it would be happy turning 7,000 rpms. To get your 60s down I would call ATI and talk to them about a treemaster converter I bet they could help your 60s out with a harder hiting converter.

That was definitely my thought process BUT think about I would buy
1. New Nice converter ( ill never recover the money i have in mine ) i will gain ET but probably lose street manners.
2. Up the cam size. Again I notice I am a bit undercammed especially for my heads ( which i did buy thinking i would have already done a 540 and didnt want to buy twice ) however once again street manners will suffer and overall valve train will be a bit more radical....
3. The 4150 swap i think will definitely pick my car up in the CURRENT RPM range and configuration however not so sure if i make the combination a bit more radical......

Thats where im torn I can do these things we are discussing and make my goal at the expense of street manners but the thought of swapping on some very efficient Ovals and attaining the same goals while IMPROVING street manners. If i dont have to buy a cam and converter, I know the resell on my heads would be very good especially since people would get to see them running on engine I would not be out any more money imho. But thats my dilemma and why I am asking for opinions.

I guess logically if i go with the ovals its going to mean a swap of intake anyway so it makes sense to try the 4150 setup and see how my car reacts to that I can always turn the intake over on ebay ( assuming i dont pick a decent one up to begin with ) hell i wonder if they even make a oval port TD intake?

Hopefully bob will see this thread and give me some direction on springs

 

[Busted Knuckles]

I have an extra 427-C (big rectangular ports with 4150 base, high rise dual plane) I'd be happy to let you try before you do anything drastic. PM me if you're interested, I can ship it out next week.

 

[Shawn Gilbert]

will it fit on a Tall Deck block?

 

[wildman926]

2. Up the cam size. Again I notice I am a bit undercammed especially for my heads ( which i did buy thinking i would have already done a 540 and didnt want to buy twice ) however once again street manners will suffer and overall valve train will be a bit more radical....

Shawn,

How is it going for you bud? Intereseted in a cam swap to better utilize your heads, but stay in the same rpm range, and easy on valve train? HERE YOU GO, Just use 1.8's on the intake -

Lunati 502A9
New solid roller, rough idle. Good cam for bracket racing with 454-540 cubic inch motors. Very easy on valve train parts! Needs 3500-4000 RPM stall converter, headers, 10.5:1 compression ratio and 4.10 gearing or better.

•Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 300/306
•Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 264/270
•Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .670/.670
•LSA/ICL: 110/106
•Valve Lash (Int/Exh): .024/.026
•RPM Range: 3500-7000

What do you think?

 

[o6r1man]

I am in kinda in the same boat I have way to big heads, intake and carb, for my mild cam this winter I am going to get a bigger stick for sure.

 

[gnicholson]

in my experience a properly tuned dominator that is right for the application will be faster than any 4150

 

[nastynate]

Tony,
First of all I am asking this in the public forum so that your reply and my scenario may help others.
I currently have a 505 with AFR 325 CNC Chambered option at 116cc using the standard 18cc SRP Piston for about 10.5 to 1 compression. Also setting on my combo is a Huge Dart Intake and AED ProStreet Dominator pushing through 2" x 3.5 cheapo Hooker headers. The cam is a 60234 Voodoo Solid Roller ( actualy Harold and Dacaman had to straighten it and regrind ) 255/263 at .050 with .680 lift ( .016 lash ) at 110. Pushing through a turbo 400 with a 4400 RPM Pro Edge converter and 4.10 gears on a 28x10.5 but I am Huge so my car weighs almost 3800lbs

Once I finally got my car to hook I have began to notice the lack of TQ compared to other combinations of a similar design out 60fting me even with the nose up. My car has ran a best of 10.18 @ 131.57 but usually traps 130.50 ish using Hoosier Radials and a 1.45 60ft. i dont run my engine up in RPMs shift before 6k usually.

This brings me to the purpose of this post I have began to look at what is mismatched on my car to improve ET numbers in the RPM range I am operating within. It occurs to me I need to do 1 of 2 things run a more aggressive combo that peaks a bit higher and takes advantage of the 325s.

1. Little more compression.
2. Larger Cam ( to take advantage of the 325 ports )
3. Looser stall or go to a more race oriented 8" instead of 9.5
4. lower gear ratio
5. Larger headers
6. turn more RPM through each gear and through the traps with the change to the combo.

Or optimize my current combo to make more TQ in the RPM range i am currently using it.

1. Intake change-the captain insano Dart intake is probably getting efficient about the time i shift. Was still looking at trying the Merlin that is basically a 4150 intake with the Dominator adapter machined in.
2. Depending on intake purchase I might finally be able to provide the coveted apples to apples 4500/Aftermarket tuned Dominator vs 4150 with Aftermarket tuned 1000hp comparo we have all wanted.
3. try some 1.8 rockers to get a bit more lift out of my current combo....
4. Swap to 4150 1000hp setup.

So now i jump on the forums and I see you have these new wonderful heads and I cant help but think this would seemingly be MY holy grail. The first thing to remember is that my car is a pump gas true full interior uncut street car which is very important to me. So now I am thinking.

1. Sell 325s
2. Buy 290's CNC chambers.
3. Ill get increased compression from the change from 116cc to 112cc combustion chambers which should put me about 11 to 1. And yes i remember you TELLING me to aim a bit higher on CR but I was being conservative as I truly like to drive my car around and we almost have it painted so will be doing even more so. Its not a daily driver but i like to fire it up and drive it around town much more than taking it to the strip ( i mainly go just to hang out with my racing buddies ).
3. The 290s would seem to match my current cams net lift of .662 and probably be more efficient across the entire usable RPM range I use along with being more likely to move 3800lbs more efficiently with the conservative power train i have.
4. If they dont make a proper 4500 intake for your new ovals then i do have access to a nice ProSystems 1000HP 4150.
5. Keep my 2" headers and current exhaust as they are probably a much better match.

Those heads would just seem to match my combo better, I really feel like I can stand more TQ and based on metrics from similar cars I am under performing in the first 330ft or so. It just seems like in my mind i would gain a little HP due to the compression increase or keep the current level at the very least while simultaneously increasing TQ and AVG HP across the entire narrow RPM band I use my motor. My goal is 9.99 on 93...... Your new heads have REALLY thrown a monkey wrench into my plans and I very much like the IDEA of them to accomplish my goals. I have not turned a wrench on my engine since i built it and it has served me well so far I have been very happy with it but i would like to hit 9.99 if that means more aggressive so be it ( as i notice my cam is a bit on the small side compared to similar combos that hit the 9s ) but the thought of doing it conservatively with a more efficient combo REALLY appeals to me.......

Will 1.8 rockers cause any piston to valve prolems with srp 18cc domeson the intake. I was considering going to those but was unsure about the clearance.This with the voodoo 60234 using the same pistons with 119 cc heads. afr

 

[wildman926]

Will 1.8 rockers cause any piston to valve prolems with srp 18cc domeson the intake. I was considering going to those but was unsure about the clearance.This with the voodoo 60234 using the same pistons with 119 cc heads. afr

I don't have any issues with the 1.8's. This is with the same pistons, cam, but 114cc 305 heads. Piston is .0115 out of the hole. Always best to measure.

 

[Busted Knuckles]

will it fit on a Tall Deck block?

No, I don't think they ever made one of this variety for a tall deck. Jim actually tried one on the 555 they built a short while back and it surprised everyone. The runners on the 427-C are humongous as compared to even the biggest dual plane of any other type. I'd bet you could scrounge up some intake spacers to give this a shot. If it works better than anything else, I'll sell it to you for a small phenomenal fee

 

[Bruduce66]

shawn, if you want to sell those heads, pm me, my short block 540 is almost done, I will be in the market, for heads by the end of sept. thank you Ron H.

 

[Doug F.]

I think you have a decent running car and if you want better 60's you'll need a serious converter (5000 flash).

I think the heads would be a waste of money and time for what you'd get unless you are trying to extract every .05 you can.

 

[Harold Sutton]

Shawn, at 3800 lbs. you're going real quick and fast right now. If you can fit a "radial slick" you can pick up about 1 1/2 tenths from a tire change. I seriously doubt the 290 CNC will add much but i could be wrong as the .400 lift flow numbers look good. The excessive weight of the car is your main problem, 3800 lbs. is a huge load for any engine to haul. Bob took a couple hundred lbs. out of his '71 after the wreck at Ozark and that is when it started to really run. Your car isn't underperforming by any means. You have to realize that that 131.5 trap speed is the average speed taken at 1287', not 1320', like in the old days. By the way, Bob West's car is 120 lbs. lighter than yours and your running about 2 more mph at the eighth, your engine is making more power than Bob's right now.