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nuttyd

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
434 small block chevy
AFR heads
little M block
620 horse on dyno
brand new griffin radiater, BIG

tryed changing thermostats, diferent size spacers in replacement of thermostat. runs 240 degrease and cant get it to run cooler. Even tryed taking hood off.
Any ideas
 
* I see its 240 deg but how hot is it running at idle in traffic and when at cruise?

NOTE,did you verify tem gauge by using an auto type ac type hand held temp thermomter placed in hot coolent thru rad filler nech or a new type hand hel themal electronic tem gun to ensure its really at 240 deg?

* Is temp sender in head by ex port or in the intake that runs approx 10 deg cooler on avg then with temp sender in head by the localized hot spot by ex port & ex manifold/header? But take 10 deg away from 240 and 230 if still too hotto be running on a nornmal basis with a hiperf sbc,not a 2009 moroe designed to run no problem at 210-220 deg all day long.

* what gear?

* if auto trans are you running an extrenal cooler mounted in front of rad partially blooking airflow thru the rad which can also increase temps with marginall cooling system or when other tuning issues are present that cause the motor to run hotter? If yes move ext trans cooler away from front of rad and use small elec trans cooler fan to do that job,airflow is key to better cooling i traffic and at lower cruise speeds.

* what water pump?

* what type radiator,3-4 core stock type copper brass or al with 2 lrg tubes?

* with motor hot and t-stat open or with open restrictor plate in place of t-stat can you see ample coolent flow thru radiator tubes with rad cap off and looking into filler neck of rad with motor at approx 2k-2500 rpms? Coolent should be comming out of rad tbes pretty good at that point and if not rad may be blokced,collent passegaes in block may be blocked, and or w-pump may have issues.

* is bottom hose collasing or being sucked closed if there is no spring in it which would stop or slow collent flow?

* are you running a fan shroud?

* what type fan,fixed,7 blade clutch fan wit hd fan clutch,elec fan/s?

* are you running enough octane? If need more try kemco supreme 130 real lead booster,can mix to over 10 octane with 93 fuel.see kemco site for details,its much cheaper then race fuel.

* excessively lean fuel calibration (or vac leak )esp at idle and at lower rpm cruise speed will also casue a motor to run hotter

* (this is a must check )are you running at least 18 if not 20 deg base timing with the hot cam your running to get 600-650hp with 43oish cubed sbc ? Retarded base timing makes motors run a ot hotter on street in traffic and at lower engine speeds before mech adv/total is fully in.

Note 1,when setting base timing ensure if=dle is low like 600rpms toensure mech adv in dist isnt partially activated which will srew up base timing adj making it considerably more retarded then you think it is becasue the mech adv would be additing some timing to the base timing when setting base timing at too high of an idle with mech adv partially activated.

Note 2,when set timing for total only that often leaves base timing retarded which is a mistake many dyno perf shops/people overlook for s street applaication,they are only interested in max power on the dyno ,not dirveability in traffic. For example,if total is set to 36 deg some heis can have as much as 28-30 deg mech adv. So in that case 36 total - 28 deg = 6 deg base timing when your hot cam needs approx 18-20 deg base timing for street use. That leave base timing horribly retarded by 12-14 deg which is huge. But for stip use only or other racing its not an issue at all because of not much idle time like on street in traffic and or in slow 25-30mph traffic .

* also,for street a vac adv can also help it to run even cooler esp at idle and or low speed due to the additonal timing it adds to help a motor with hot perf cam idle better. But if your running the proper 18-20 deg base timing and motor is tuned properly you can get away without vac adv on street with hot setup.

I bet you have more then one (at least 2,3,maybe even 4) of the above items going on with you motor collectively all tat the same time adding up to make it run hoter then it should. So chk all those things out esp the base timing, vac adv which are often overlooked items with hot setups like yours.

Good luck.

Scott
 
Scott's post pretty much covered all the bases....
 
434 small block chevy
AFR heads
little M block
620 horse on dyno
brand new griffin radiater, BIG

tryed changing thermostats, diferent size spacers in replacement of thermostat. runs 240 degrease and cant get it to run cooler. Even tryed taking hood off.
Any ideas
usually happens when you stuff 2 pounds into a one pound paper sack:D
 
I'd recommend one of Weiand's water pumps. My AFR-headed 383 has one, and it runs cool as a cucumber. I also have a Be Cool alum rad and a 180 stat with a couple holes drilled through it. That's all it should take!
 
Yeh,i would not be surprised at all if he has mult tuning issues going on (esp base timing) at the same time causing most of the running hot issue.

Also could have a stock w-pump on an appliaction that could really use a hi flow pump like suggested too if thats truely the case here.

Scott
 
Discussion starter · #10 ·
Ok heres the low down

411 gear
sending unit is in intake
griffin aluminum 1.25 tubes, 3", 19"x31"
trans cooler IS in front of the radiator
initial timing is at 14 and total is at 38
no vacume advance, msd pro billet
blaster hvc coil and digital 6 box
stock flow water pump but its chrome so hey
electric fan 15"
be cool hoses, so no no colapsing can happen
checked it everywhere with the temp gun, yes hot.
gets hot on normal cruise and interstate speeds

Thanks for all the help, I'm going out right now to get the timing issue fixed and go from there, I'll keep ya post on all the changes that make it run cool.
 
Hi Duane,you said "gets hot on normal cruise and interstate speeds" so since its getting hot at slower and faster cuise speeds what does temp run in stop & go traffic,?

Does it also hit 240 in traffic and when stopped?

What rpm are you crusing at your higher cruise speeds with that unfirendly for street 411 gear if running non OD trans setup,3300-3500+rpms ?

Anyway,glad to see your checking out the timing .

You will need to replace the adv bushing in the mech adv with a larger one to reduce mech adv in dist by approx 6 deg from the 24 deg its at now to 18 deg .

Then you can run 18-20 deg base timing with 18 deg mech for 36-38 total depending on if running 18 0r 20 deg base timing. The cam hot cam your running should respond well to additional 6 deg deg base timing with better throttle responce/little more power/better idle /better fuel economy/etc.

But dontr be afraid to test 18-20 deg base timing even if total goes to 40 or a little more to test cruise temp out. Just dont hammet it when testing cruise tremps out with ore base timing before you have a chance to recurve/reduce mech adv in dist. Just listen for ping at cruise with more base and over 40 deg total when doing test run and if it pings then ony give motor gemtle thortle amounts to avoid dretonation and to recurve/reduce mech adv before you do any more testing to reduce temps.

As i stated in ealier post dont forget to also chk coloent flow in rad with rad cap off motor hot reved to approx 2500rpsm to see if there is ample collent flow like coolent flowing fairly strong out of tubes in rad at the 2500 rpms. If you dont see good coolent flow with motor hot ans stat open then as suggested get a hi flow pump because your hi perf 650hp 434 sbc could use it,thats for sure. (If it were my motor i'd install a new hi flow pump ASAP,i think it really needs one IMHO,milodon mfg's a resoanble cast iron hi flow pump for approx $100-$110,summit sells them.)

Ext trans cooler in front of rad will allways reduce airflow thru rad reducing its ability too cool. So move it to another spot away from front of rad with decent aiflow if possible. If that new mount area for ext trans cooler doesnt jave ample airflow for proper trans oil cooling they mfg small ele cooling fans that mount dorectly to the ext trans cooler to do the job.

I think a single elec 15" fan may not be adequate enough for a street 650hp perf motor with 411 gear esp in traffic. But the fan should not aftect cruise speed temps and the airflow at approx 35-40mph should be enough to cool the motor so the fan should be mute point at higher speeds.

So if it still runs hot in traffic after adv base timing and poss installing a hi flow w-pump then i would install a better dual fan setup . Contact Don at Alumitech (see his Alumitech websiteforcontact info) becasue he can set you up with a very good hi perf dual fan setup. Tell Don Scott From t/chevelle rec him to you if you decide contact him.

Vac adv would be a help too esp at cruise speed where it would add an additonal 10-12 deg or so timing to get to approx 50 deg timing when at cruise to help lower cruise temp some.

But with the hot cam you must have to get 650hpfrom 434 sbc i dont think there would be enough idle vacuum to run a avc adv at idle for better idle & cooler temp when in traffic. So if thats the case with low idle vac esp when in gear with auto trans and big cam at stop lights the vac adv could be run on ported vac to at least have some vac adv when at cruise to help it runh a little coller and to also help fuel economy a bit too.

Are you running correct size water pump and lower crank pulleys for correct water pump rpm? If not that can also affect cooling .

Now if you get all the above squared away and also verify fuel calibration at cruise isnt exssively lean and it still runs too hot then maybe the AL rad you have isnt lrg enough cap to handle your setup either or these a starnge issue like head gaskets not correct or defective covering up coolent passage holes that are supposed to be open that are now blocking coolent flow.

Like i said before,i have a feeling its at least 3-4+ things that are collectively casuing the motor to run hot 2 up to 240 deg/YIKES,thats too hot for an older design sbc IMHO.

I like to see approx 190-200 deg f in traffic as a norm & maybe 205-210 deg max for a short while on 90+ deg HHH day in traffic and 180-190 deg f best case when at cruise/highway speeds and 200-205 max when at cruise highway speeds on a 90 deg HHH day.

Good luck.

Scott
 
Discussion starter · #13 ·
Ok here we go

79 malibu with full ladderbar suspension n coil overs and 350 b&m trans, 3500 stall.

The engine builder was told we dont want anything more than 600 horse, he misunderstood from my ol mans talking @#$% and was going after 850 horse and things got really messed up from the beginning , when I seen the cam specs and I was like WTF, and 14.1 compression. We wanted pump gas and I had to pick the cam after that, so 106 sep and I cant remember the cams specs off hand but not to rad and pulls 15 vacume, BUT I cant complain with the results almost 600 ft lb of torque at 4500 and this thing is sooooo streetable its unreal.

S0

I got the initial timing to 20 with the change of smaller springs and a little weld on the wieights, got the tranny cooler out of the way and riched up the idle and mid curcuit. It now runs 170 .

Thanks so much and were taking it to the track next week, 3300lb on my longacre scales, what you think it will do in the 1/4 ?
 
Duane,no problem,we are all glad to help here in t/chevelle.

Glad it all turned out to be simple tuning issues that got the temp down where it belongs .

But going from 240 deg down to 170-180 deg shows just how important correct base timing is,having proper fuel claibraton/fat enough,along with better airflow thru rad with ext trany cooler moved can be .

But I am surprised it responded that well esp with 411 gear & non od trans . I would have been happy with seeing 190-200 deg f at cruise coming from 240 deg f which was way out of line. But we will take 170-180 cruise temp with a hot setup like yours running 411 gear on the street any day of the wk./LOL!!!!

BTW,just wondering,did the motor feel stronger comming off ilde and while stil in lower rpms before total is fully in with the additional base timing the motor is now running?

Have good time at track and let us know how it runs & times.

Scott
 
Discussion starter · #16 ·
It's pretty darn hot out this weekend and it's running 190 - 195 so I think It's fine.

I'm a circle track guy and we always use a locked distributer and a retard control for start up so this street stuff is greek to me.

So ya know you got me thinkin the last few days, the off idle power as you asked really is not what i think it should be but its hard to tell.
What I did was put smaller springs and heavier weights in the distributer and I'm not sure thats the route I should have taken because it effects the curve to much right? and I understand on the street thats important. You said something about bushings and thats what has me pondering the way I did it.
 
Duane,since the tesp are fine now if the timing is at or close you what i suggested and it doesnt act funny or detnate dont drive yourself nuts trying topuch ever ounce of hp out of it unless you are really desperate for a few more ponies/LOL!!!!

But your right about street setups requring a different approach to timing then a strip or dirt track,thats for sure. Most guys set timing fror total only and dont care about base timing and or vac adv which are both important for street use and not at the track. Many with larger cams just run locked ut timing too on street like you said which is hard on thats ers and has been known to break off the starter mount area on the blokcs once in a while when no starter breace is uses and if wrong starter bolts are used or if the loosen up,have seen that a few times over the yrs.

Scott
 
Discussion starter · #18 ·
Been away awhile but back into working on the car for this coming season, rear discs, torche thrust wheels, drilling the rear axles for gm bolt pattern and possible gear change.

We never got a run in do to weather and a very understaffed and terrible track condition one day we did go.
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As far as the off idle response It does lay down for a split second but I'm thinking that can be taken care of with a cam change on the squirters, leaner.

Thinking about these tires; Mickey Thomson
3753R P275/50R15 26 X 11.50R1582" circ.


Gear recommendation for the street? Should I leave the 411 in for a track run?

What do you think?
 
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