Davey, did you use an adapter for the Dominator or did you use a Dominator manifold too?

 

Dan I used a Wilson's Manifold open adapter....good thought....it could be another factor....just sharing some experience...

 

New Saga.....As The Planetary Turns. 1100 Dominator runs like the 4150???

 

Thanks for information Davey.

 

When I switched to a Dominator I tried it on a 4150 intake w/adapter then on a 4500 intake. Both were Dart oval intakes ported by the same guy. The 4500 intake made a pretty good improvement over the adapter. The Dominator lost nothing at the launch and gained 2 mph on top.

 

Dan I think with more playing around (and maybe an intake swap) I could get the 85/Dom to run as good as the current setup. There also could be a little more on the table with a gas Dominator too. I wanted to see how it would do without going into any major changes and how the 85 was to work with. I was leaving wide open off the brake with both and I really didn't see/feel any difference in that regard...

 

When you get your E85 setup dialed in,you'll be at least a tenth quicker than you are on gas,even with lower compression....:beers:

 

I would have liked to see a 4150 vs. 4150 test The only problem that I have with E85 is what comes out of the pump, mixing your own or buying it in a drum I'm sure its a good, consistent fuel.

 

Bob, I've never found any inconsistencies out of the pump. Unless you're talking about the winter E70 in the cold areas. But even then it's not inconsistent. Maybe some stations play games??

 

They are asking $9 a gallon for alcohol and VP at the track. E85 at our gas stations right now are around 80 percent. The price though is only $2.60 a gallon. You just can't beat that.

 

Kind of difficult to base any fact on seat of the pants "feelings". Some hard data might help.

 

best pass on the 85 was a 9.53.....same weather same track same day on my old fuel 9.45....there was also 1 mph loss on the 85....when I say "feel" I'm talking about the throttle response and the sound of the motor...I don't know if it's the 85, the Dom or a combination of both but the motor is sharper on the VP gas and the 4150 carb. I'm sure I could get the 85 to run as good with more testing, my main point is don't be afraid of it if you need a race gas and want to pay less. With a good 85 carb like Eric's and an AFR gauge it easy to use....

 

How available is it here in Orygun Davey?

Ron

 

it's around Ron, I just Google'd it.....I found a Shell Station right at the Donald exit (278) on the 5 that sells it. For me it's on the way to the track if I need it....their stuff is 85 year round...every time I've tested it was spot on 85...

 

Thanks for the feedback Davey -- I have to say that you are definitely one of the more detail-oriented racers out there that I have ever dealt with That's a good thing when trying to compare fuels, carbs, etc. that may only be separated in performance by a couple hundredths. While I would have loved to hear that we're a couple tenths faster than your MS109 gasoline setup, I'd rather hear honest feedback.

To add a little what Davey was saying about his VP gasoline . . . the MS109 seems to be a pretty good blend of race gasoline. We've been beating run-of-the-mill 110 Torco (or similar) pretty easily with our carbs running pump e85 and killing pump 92/93 octane by even more. I think there may be a little more in Davey's e85 tune, but I doubt there's a ton there -- I ran Davey's carb on my Camaro (at WOT with wideband) before shipping it just to make sure it would be close on Davey's setup.

I did a little research on the specific fuel Davey runs and here is what VP says on its website. Seems his combo really likes it.

MotorSport 109™
In engines that can run on pump gas, MS109 is a direct replacement that produces more power than any other unleaded fuel - up to 5% more than premium unleaded. Recommended for applications with up to 25 lbs of boost and naturally aspirated engines with CRs up to 15:1. Compared to other unleaded fuels, MS109 offers better detonation protection as well.

Recently I've seen some tests out there that have actually shown a measurable horsepower advantage on the dyno with the high-end race fuels like C25 over e85. I'm not sure how e85 stacks up to the MS109 other than the feedback Davey has provided here -- in fact I'm not aware of any of our 400+ customers that switched from MS109 to e85.

So in the end I hope you are happy with your carb, our service, and especially the $13 a gallon cost savings running e85

 

The big thing is that you are getting "race gas" for less than regular gas price. You have to compare $9-$12 a gallon to $2.60 a gallon. Even if it is a little slower who can argue with the difference in price? If I could run 5.99 on race gas or 6.07 on E85 from the pump I will run the 6.07 all day.

 

Interesting results! :yes: Thanks for posting, CD! :thumbsup:

 

Davey..have you run the car with straight 91 ? and if so, how does it stack up against those alternative`s fuels ??

 

MP109 is unleaded? And good for power over regular 92-93 octane pump junk?
Really?
Jet change required?

I believe we have a winter blend here in OR as well, probably double sucks.

Ron

 

Steve, no I have not run it on 91, at 11.4 to 1 I think that is too close to the edge and that's the highest pump gas rating on the west coast. I have run it on Sunoco 110, e85 and the 109 (which is actually 101 motor octane). It runs the same on the 110 and e85 and just a tick better on the 109. I just like the way the motor feels on the 109. Sunoco makes a fuel called 260GT Plus, it's also unleaded and has a motor octane of 98, I'm trying to find some to try out.

Ron, yes the 109 has a much lower specific gravity so if you are running true pump gas you would need to jet up at least 3 steps all around. I don't know if the 91 has a winter blend up here but the e85 at the Shell did not change from August to February....

 

I think if Davey had a little more compression he could take better advantage of the E85. I'm surprised it ran as good as it did with 11.4:1.

 

x2.....I think the e85 is ideal for someone who is over 12 to 1 and must use a race gas. Even 110 is $8-$9/gal so e85 at $3.xx is a bargain....

 

I was talking about e85 to our local carb guru who runs e85 in his Super Street Vega. What he told me is that e85 is about 105 octane and works good up to about 12-1 compression, but not higher because it is only 105.

Is this true or not ?

Something else to think about is that you will burn about 30% more e85 than if you ran on gas. So if e85 is 3.50 per gallon it will really cost $4.55 per gallon verses the race gas. I paid 7.25 last year for sunoco 110. Still a 2.70 per gallon savings.

Ryan

 

Ryan I know Dal Trubey runs it at 13 to1 with no issues.....you are right about using more fuel, I don't know if it's 30% but that's probably not too far off.... The 110 price will vary depending on where you are...our track sells the Sunoco for $9.....I was getting VP 110 in SoCal for $8....

 

92 here in the metro area, unless I have misread.
Always E10, although if you search you can find "pure 91"

I noted a performance loss in my Vette near the end of last season (October) so I believe we switch to a winter blend. Who knows what that is.

Anyway, I would give the good stuff a try in the Vette, you can change jetting w/o touching a screw driver! And I want that 10 second ET.

In the Nova, I think the last times I ran it years ago, we didn't have E10 in the summer. Our legislature decided E10 was good for everyone.

ron

 

Thanks for the post Dave. You have an amazing car. I always enjoy reading your post. I switched over to E85 last year. I talked to a few guys about building me a carb. I choose Eric. We went with 1000 hp with the 2nd ajustable screw. I'm so happy I chose him he is one of the best people I have ever dealt with. He sent me two carbs helpping me with my car. His customer services is the best! I was having a slight hesitation. The problem wasn't the carbs at all it turned out. I run a AFR composite intake. I wasn't getting enough heat for the fuel. I ended up swapping to a 180 from a 160 thermossat. Now the carb works great. As far as performance goes. We put the carb on and left evrything the same with my nitrous controler. Drove to the track, And with a couple of my friends watching I pulled up to the line to make a pass. When the light turned green I hit the gas and the track dissapered. Everone was shocked. My car nerver pulled both the wheels off the ground like that. EVER! We had to turn the nitrous controler way down. My sixty foots went from 1.42 to 1.28. with less nitrous.

Dave hope you don't mind me give my results with e85 in your thread.

I just finished having a cage put in my car,And I look forwarded to more results in a couple of weeks.

 

wow that's a killer 60 for a '67 and congrats on the times!! Heck no I don't mind, I think anyone who has some e85 results should post it up as that is the point of the thread. In some past threads there seemed to be a bit on controversy regarding e85 so I thought it might help anyone who has been thinking about it. Eric did a great job on mine too, he is one of several noted guys out there doing the carbs but he's an actual racer and gives it a more personal touch. I noticed the same thing, the e85 is very cold blooded so you have to get some heat in the motor but that's not a problem because the intake charge is so cold anyway you don't need a cold motor. I think the stuff will work really good in the summer when the temps are up and you have to hot lap at an event.

Plus you have a '67......

 

Wow Patrick -- 1.28 sixties now. Cool

Speaking of two carbs, you ever going to send that second one back to me? lol

On the octane of e85 . . . its a little tough to describe in few words, but I'll try

There are two octane tests used here in the US. They are designed for gasoline and specify an intake air temperature.

On every gas pump there is a label that describes the octane rating and the formula used to calculate the number you see. In the US we average the Motor and Research octane numbers so you see (R+M)/2 on the label.

Even though the research and motor octane test specs were developed with gasoline engines in mind, they use the same standard for alcohol fuels (I suppose you have to use something). Well, the Research and Motor octane tests artificially increases the inlet air temp negating the cooling benefit of alcohol based fuels. This results in a lower octane rating on e85 than what the fuel really "acts like" in a real running vehicle.

We have pretty reliably been able to replace 110 and 112 octane gasoline with e85 in engines up to (and sometimes over) 14:1 compression. Of course the rest of the combo has to be right (including camshaft, cooling system, load, etc.)

We have also been able to do blow through without an innercooler up to 32 psi at 9:1 compression. ***important note *** I am NOT recommending 32 psi without an inner cooler on e85!

That being said, its not a magical fuel. If you push the timing too far you can hurt a headgasket. If you push it too lean on boost, you can pop a piston. Overall, its a pretty forgiving fuel with a fairly wide tune window in most cases, but you can still hurt stuff if you get careless -- just like gasoline.

PS. On a side note, we have also seen some nice gains on lower compression engines, but not as consistently as with the higher compression engines. The lower compression engines seem to be less responsive to tuning on e85 when making small jet changes. By that I mean, if you make a small jet change you will see the AFR move, but may not see any performance change.

 

Thanks Eric, I knew you'd explain it correctly.

Dal