[Mike's 67]

Hi guys

Just received some books on engine building I ordered earlier in the week. My mission is to keep reading and learning.

While I'm learning about performance type engines something has me a bit concerned. I plan on using my original M22. What is the ideal type of engine for that transmission?

What I mean is, does that transmission work best with certain types of engine designs like say......Torque at the low end vs the high end of the RPM curve?

My goal is to keep in mind the M22 while building my 327. I was just thinking that depending on how the engine is built it might work for or against the type of transmission it is.

What's ideal for that tranny?

Thanks!

Mike

 

[540Hotrod]

A whole lotta rear end gear with a 327 in front of it!

JIM

 

[Aaron]

4.56's to 4.88's.

 

[Mike's 67]

How about the engine?

Should the 327 be built to have low end torque or torque at higher RPMs?

I've been doing some reading and I see some people design motors for certain applications based on total drivetrain. It's a bit confusing for me.

Mike

 

[73nova]

Problem is a 327 isn't a torque monster. So that being said in my earlier posts on your 327 build and or 383 questions. You need more gear to run that transmission meaning want mid to upper power band as you will be revving it up higher as well. 4.10-4.56 for street with 26in tall tire would be ideal maybe 28in with 4.56 to keep rpm close at 60 but you are going to need to spin it to use that transmission most people say that transmission is great for road coarse tracks as it is close ratio. And I know you want to use it as your dad bought it for you, so best bet is to gear the car accordingly with 4.10+ and enjoy it.

 

[540Hotrod]

We need to know what you want to do with it. The M-22 does well in road racing and in that case you'd want a strong midrange that carries as RPM climbs...if you're doing a bunch of up/down shifting.

Drag racing..you have no first gear hardly..so you need a ton of rear end gearing to make up for no torque multiplication and an engine that can make killer top end power and scream all the way down the track.

If just determined to use that trans on the street with a 327...then you're going to want to build for low/mid range TQ so that it can get moving. If the gearing is not real deep...a 327 is going to struggle to gain RPM if it's not deeply geared. In that case it's going to have to pull long and hard through each gear....so mega RPM won't be the case.

I had an M-22 with 3.36's in my first Vette..a '64. It had a relatively mild 350 in it and I used to run up to 55 MPH in 1st and grab 2nd gear beside folks. Talk about fun coming off an onramp! But it was hard on clutches. From a roll the trick was to push in the clutch...rev it high and dump clutch again to get tires spinning so it could get going. Otherwise it was slow going! 6000 rpm was about 65 mph in 1st!

If you can find someone to pay you big $$ for the M22..you'd be a ton happier with a Richmond 5 speed or TKO type deal on the street.

JIM

 

[73nova]

If you can find someone to pay you big $$ for the M22..you'd be a ton happier with a Richmond 5 speed or TKO type deal on the street.

JIM

His dad bought the M22 so he wants to incorporate it into his build as his dads not doing so well. I figured with a longer stroke and a 3.42+ gear the 2.20 first wouldn't be to bad but he is keeping it a 327 low buck setup cammel hump 461 heads. So with that in mind a deeper gear would be best with low/mid range torque to get it on its feet quick.

 

[Mike's 67]

Ok, I finally understand what you guys are saying. I didn't really grasp it until you explained it like that.

Thanks for the help guys!

Mike

 

[RB69SS396Conv]

The M22 has relatively close ratios; meaning, the RPMs don't change much between gears. Only about a 30% RPM drop at each shift.

Therefore you need to build the engine to work best in the RPM range that the combination of the trans and the application force the engine to remain within.

Different from, say, a 700-R4 with a stock stall, where the engine RPMs might go from 1500 to 5000 in 1st, then drop back to 3200 in 2nd, and so on.

Typically you'll want a single-pattern cam with relativley tight lobe centers, with the duration picked according to the desired RPMs. For a 327 on the street, that probably means a solid-lifter cam with about 230 - 236° of duration, probably end up around .480" of lift somewhere, and about 106 - 108° LSA; coupled with about 4.56 gears. Probably won't "win" races these days, but it'll be hella fun to drive except on the freeway, where you'll be doing about 5000 RPM at 70 mph. Also won't have much "leave" unless you wind it up a bit and dump the clutch, but once it gets going, LOOK OUT.

Prepare to be your local gas station's best customer.

All around, other than the pure nostalgia and sentimental aspect of it, probably only something you'd do just so you can say you've done it, then put in something more modern. The T-56 is a TERRIFIC trans to swap old stick cars to, for example.

 

[sschevellefan]

How about the engine?

Should the 327 be built to have low end torque or torque at higher RPMs?

I've been doing some reading and I see some people design motors for certain applications based on total drivetrain. It's a bit confusing for me.

Mike

Thats why I asked what your intet was for the engine in your other thread. Its ok to not know everything about cars yet and its great that your making the effort to learn but when we ask you questions about the build its best to give the most honest answer. With that said, you need to decide what you want the engine to do. Do you want the low end power or the top end power? Your 327 build thread gave you plenty of info and you expressed you wanted the "old school" type build that you heard of from back in the day. With that type of build you would want to go for top end power and run 4.56-4.88 gears to compensate.

 

[Harold Sutton]

His dad bought the M22 so he wants to incorporate it into his build as his dads not doing so well. I figured with a longer stroke and a 3.42+ gear the 2.20 first wouldn't be to bad but he is keeping it a 327 low buck setup cammel hump 461 heads. So with that in mind a deeper gear would be best with low/mid range torque to get it on its feet quick.

A 2.20 low geared M-22 is going to run like molasses in January with a streetable rear end gear no matter what kind of cam you put in it. My Chevelle, with a 396, had 4.88s and needed 5.13s to really accelerate. Ditch the street gears or get a five speed, much better for that short stroke. His dad's health shouldn't figure into his engine build decisions. The car will be a dog with 3.42 gears, a 600" BBC can run almost any gear but not a streetable 327" sbc.

 

[kirkwoodken]

The old rule of thumb used to be about 12:1 for an overall gear ratio for good hole shots. Do the math and you will see that using a 2.2 first gear ratio requires about 5.57 rear gears for a good hole shot. That works great for racing, not so good for street. The 12:1 rule can't be applied to high stalls and torque converters. BUT, for a stick shift 327, it bears adhering to.

 

[MEJ1990TM]

A 2.20 low geared M-22 is going to run like molasses in January with a streetable rear end gear no matter what kind of cam you put in it. My Chevelle, with a 396, had 4.88s and needed 5.13s to really accelerate. Ditch the street gears or get a five speed, much better for that short stroke. His dad's health shouldn't figure into his engine build decisions. The car will be a dog with 3.42 gears, a 600" BBC can run almost any gear but not a streetable 327" sbc.

I strongly disagree with that. Both cars run just fine with a 2.20/3.31 take off. Even the all stock 350 in the '71 drives off just fine. The '70 ran 13.20's way back when with that dog of a first gear.

 

[Mike's 67]

Thats why I asked what your intet was for the engine in your other thread. Its ok to not know everything about cars yet and its great that your making the effort to learn but when we ask you questions about the build its best to give the most honest answer. With that said, you need to decide what you want the engine to do. Do you want the low end power or the top end power? Your 327 build thread gave you plenty of info and you expressed you wanted the "old school" type build that you heard of from back in the day. With that type of build you would want to go for top end power and run 4.56-4.88 gears to compensate.

I did give an honest answer. Below is what I responded to you when you asked.

I never experienced what it felt like to have a strong 327. Part of me want's to go to a strip once in a while and slam that stick till she breaks. I still want to drive it on the street and have fun at car shows with my sons just like my Dad did with me. I guess it's a multi purpose vehicle.

Of course, I've never been to a drag strip so I don't even know what that requires.

It's difficult to know exactly what I want considering I have never been to a drag strip, I think I would enjoy an occasional jaunt. Besides that I would like something that's streetable but still pushed pretty hard in the performanace department.

I'm slowly getting it. I talked to a couple of engine builders and much of what they are saying is a duplicate of what others are saying here on the forum.

My original 327 had a 350 HP GM cam and it was matched to the heads and intake I showed in the photos. The differential was a 3.36 and of course the M22 that's in question here.

It had power, no doubt about it. It was a very fun ride but it didn't do well in 1st gear. It also lacked top end power from what I remember. Keep in mind that was almost 20 years ago when I parked it because of, what I thought, was a head issue.

So I want more. I'm trying to figure out a package that makes sense instead of what I did as a teenageer - Bolt stuff together and call it good.

The holley carb I had was known as holleys "universal carb" back in the day, it even said that on the box. If flooded constantly and probably was messed up. I was young and just dealt with it instead of fixing it.

Mike

 

[kirkwoodken]

2.2's and 3.36/3.08' were the norm with 348's. Same with 350's. With 283/302's, not so good. To get streetable torque, you need about a 30 degree intake valve closing at .050" lift to provive enough low end torque for street driving high gearing. That puts .050" duration in the 210/215 range, not enough for strong high end HP. So here is one more situation where compromise is called for.

I strongly suggest 2.5 four speed and 3.73's for good street gears. With a roller in the 230ish degree range, like CC 280 street solid roller or the 60112 VooDoo hydraulic roller, or VooDoo 60131 solid roller, you would have a strong running 327/330, capable of mid 12 second times and still be a good hyway car. Could it be more? Of course it could. And you are looking at good heads to obtain this.

Just my opinion.

 

[427L88]

I know budget was mentioned, but why not swap the M22 gears out for deeper ones?

Or, if not, you must keep the 327 TQ specif design; I'd copy that Mike Lewis 327 design to the letter, except for the heads of course. You might consider copying it anyway!

my opinion, the old skool 2.20 ratio is dead wrong. it did help the trans and gears live longer, to be sure. But with modern metallurgy and modern stronger cases, it inst required as a design element of the trans as much. Hence the proliferation of 3.0:1 gear ratios.

I'm saving my nickles and dimes ( literally; I've rolled over $300 worth), for a modern M23-Z, with a 2.98 to one.

For a stout 327, I'd seek out one of the 3.4:1 Pontiac T10 gearboxes. ( Trans Am) It should last well enough and let that 327 get up on its feet quickly.

 

[MEJ1990TM]

I know budget was mentioned, but why not swap the M22 gears out for deeper ones?

Or, if not, you must keep the 327 TQ specif design; I'd copy that Mike Lewis 327 design to the letter, except for the heads of course. You might consider copying it anyway!

my opinion, the old skool 2.20 ratio is dead wrong. it did help the trans and gears live longer, to be sure. But with modern metallurgy and modern stronger cases, it inst required as a design element of the trans as much. Hence the proliferation of 3.0:1 gear ratios.

I'm saving my nickles and dimes ( literally; I've rolled over $300 worth), for a modern M23-Z, with a 2.98 to one.

For a stout 327, I'd seek out one of the 3.4:1 Pontiac T10 gearboxes. ( Trans Am) It should last well enough and let that 327 get up on its feet quickly.

The steeper gears put more stress on everything, don't they?

 

[427L88]

Yes. I dont see it mentioned much, but likely one reason the engineers went to a 2.20:1 first, to keep it alive under stress. Certainly wasnt for performance.

 

[73nova]

A 2.20 low geared M-22 is going to run like molasses in January with a streetable rear end gear no matter what kind of cam you put in it. My Chevelle, with a 396, had 4.88s and needed 5.13s to really accelerate. Ditch the street gears or get a five speed, much better for that short stroke. His dad's health shouldn't figure into his engine build decisions. The car will be a dog with 3.42 gears, a 600" BBC can run almost any gear but not a streetable 327" sbc.

Lol well lets see my 350 with a 2.52 first gear m20 with 3.08s in my nova ran great would spin the tires and was almost identical with the 2.20 3.42 setup I mentioned. But you are a pro. .2 isnt going to affect that much. m21 setup I had with 3.73s did fairly well and pulled hard, guess what still had a 2.20 first gear. I am not here to argue with the pros.

And if you read what I said " I figured with a longer stroke and a 3.42+ gear the 2.20 first wouldn't be to bad but he is keeping it a 327 low buck setup." You see the longer stroke and 3.42??????? I guess not dont jump the gun there. I have driven lots of different transmissions in my 8 years of driving my nova. And what works for me may not work for you. Hes not looking for a wheelie car that will smoke everything in its sight. And if my dad bought me a transmission and it worked and he was on his death bed I would incorporate it into my build.

 

[sschevellefan]

I did give an honest answer. Below is what I responded to you when you asked.

I never experienced what it felt like to have a strong 327. Part of me want's to go to a strip once in a while and slam that stick till she breaks. I still want to drive it on the street and have fun at car shows with my sons just like my Dad did with me. I guess it's a multi purpose vehicle.

Of course, I've never been to a drag strip so I don't even know what that requires.

It's difficult to know exactly what I want considering I have never been to a drag strip, I think I would enjoy an occasional jaunt. Besides that I would like something that's streetable but still pushed pretty hard in the performanace department.

I'm slowly getting it. I talked to a couple of engine builders and much of what they are saying is a duplicate of what others are saying here on the forum.

My original 327 had a 350 HP GM cam and it was matched to the heads and intake I showed in the photos. The differential was a 3.36 and of course the M22 that's in question here.

It had power, no doubt about it. It was a very fun ride but it didn't do well in 1st gear. It also lacked top end power from what I remember. Keep in mind that was almost 20 years ago when I parked it because of, what I thought, was a head issue.

So I want more. I'm trying to figure out a package that makes sense instead of what I did as a teenageer - Bolt stuff together and call it good.

The holley carb I had was known as holleys "universal carb" back in the day, it even said that on the box. If flooded constantly and probably was messed up. I was young and just dealt with it instead of fixing it.

Mike

Ok, but you forgot to qoute this as well,

"My intent?

Geez, I'm just being honest when I say I don't know so I'll just tell you what I'm thinking in my head. "

You keep going back to having a "strong 327" like you heard about back in the day and thats fine. There are just different ways of doing that so thats why I asked your intent. So let me ask real basic here, do you want a high compression, high winding 327 that needs a ton of gear but pulls hard through the gears or are you looking for something you can get in and drive around with minimal hassles? between all your threads you got some really good answers so now you just need to go through them and decide what it is you really want.