I was under the impression that lifters with a bleed hole in the face was the cure.
There may be more than one solution?

 

I was under the impression that lifters with a bleed hole in the face was the cure.
There may be more than one solution?

From what I read and watched in some videos, the lifter bottoms are being ground wrong and as a result the lifters fail. In one test all the lifters passed the Rockwell hardness test but most failed the angle on which they are supposed to be ground which I thought was 1°

 

Comp Cam's bean counter philosophy that uses super cheap Chinese metal has made me lose all confidence in them. I hope this is a step in the right direction.

 

At least they recognize the problem and are trying to work around it.
Time will tell.....but I never like being a Guinea Pig.

 

I don't think there is any difference in the metal of todays lifters.
It's the oil that's changed.
This coating sounds like it will help the lifter survive the break-in period.

 

I don't think there is any difference in the metal of todays lifters.

I respectfully disagree. But I don't use flat tappet cams anymore anyway. Roller only for me.

 

I think the comps cams new “coating” is snake oil. Real DLC lifters would cost 3x’s that amount or more. I would contact Mike Jones, Jones Cams and source some Johnson lifters and a premium cam core.

 

I seem to recall reading a thread that today's lifters suffer from:

1) the fact that the OEM doesn't use them any more so QC is down and Chinesium is up
2) the hardness factor of new flat tappet lifters is less than what it used to be. some people are working around this be re-surfacing used GM/Delphi lifters to keep that hardness.

If oil were to blame, all the used motors that are high mileage would be failing over time. But they're not. We're seeing mostly new motors failing at break-in when using FT cam and lifters.

 

If oil were to blame, all the used motors that are high mileage would be failing over time. But they're not. We're seeing mostly new motors failing at break-in when using FT cam and lifters.

The lifters come with a concave (sorry- it's convex) surface when new. If they breakin slowly, they will maintain the convex surface and rotate in their bores.
If the bottom of the lifter goes flat , they stop rotating and fail rapidly.
It's the oil (lack of ZDDP) , not the hardness of the metals. ZDDP creates a "diamond-like hardness" at the lifter-cam interface.
Rollers don't need this level of protection

I think I underestimated ZDDP until I saw this

https://precisionlubrication.com/articles/zinc-lubricant-additives/

 

Probably trying to get rid of there old stock nobody will touch. Put a “coating on it so it’ll double it’s life. 5 minutes to 10 minutes 😂🤣

 

As long as companies want to do whatever it takes to keep flat tappets around is all good with me.

 

Well heres my two cents make it dime on this one . Ok they took the ZDDP out of the oil but they added Boron and other anti wear stuff in it besides it is supposed to be backwards compatible .Read the oil thing by 540 RAT very enlightening . The oil may have been some of it but a far cry from all of it . In a conversation with Ron ISKENDERIAN years ago he said Crane was the first one to stat with the cheap cres then Comp followed suit. I do not believe for one second the Comp parts tha the BIG NAME racers get is the same quality as their off the shelf everyday stuff. They first came out with hardening the cam by nitriding , nobody else does and they have few or no problems. Why would you have to do that if you know its a first class American core. Secondly the lifters had two problems one poor metalurgy and two the convex on the bottom was all wrong . For flat tappet cams i only used two lifters Genuine G/M they have the hardest bottoms or Johnson HY Lift now owned by PRO TOP LINE . Never a problem with either one . The cams havto ha taper on the lobes and the lifters also need taper /Convex to work properly . It would seem sales must be bad so comp is coming out with all this New S--T tha raises the price of a flat tappet cam and lifters . buy the time your done you could buy a roller and that defeats the purpose of an F/T cam. Incidentally have you seen the prices of F/T cam and lifters they are twice the amount they were. At that price the stuff should be all new first class cam cores and lifters. So i am not buying into any of this new nonsense from Comp . ISKY HOWARDS ELGIN PRO STOCK they all make good stuff. Isky will grind you anything you want very nice people to buy from and so will HOWARDS .ELGINPROSTOCK is generic old proven grinds that work without problems . They make some direct copies of some old CRANE and COMP grinds that were proven performers like the 268 HIGH ENERGY or the 278 H-10 look at the specs you'll find them. As for me i don't and wont buy into any of this new B/S from Comp its just a waste of more hard earned money that can be spent elsewhere on the car. I can only hope to see the end of this flat tappet cam lifter and oil war put to rest as it has been more than 30 plus years now . Years ago we never had this problem. My contention is this all of the high perf cars to roll out of Detroit wether they were G/M FORD or MOPAR they came with F/T cams Solid or HYDraulic they should be kept that way as it was a reliable old technology. Flat TAPPETS Forever. IF its good stuff made properly the right oil and proper break in procedure there should BE NO PROBLEM. ALEX I REST MY CASE

 

My .02 (About all its worth) ,

Most of the blocks that are having the failures are 40-50 years old , a hole that was once round is by far after that time .

Ask this question after a failure , what was the lifter bore clearance and was their any taper to the bore ? What did the lifter OD measure ? Was it truly round ? Only a small percent , the ones who pay attention to detail can answer . Everyone wonders why assembly takes time on a quality build , measure everything , measure twice , and don't settle for close enough or plug and play , there is no such thing when building an engine, especially nowadays .

30+ years of HFT & SFT cams , most Comp products , never a valvetrain failure here that wasn't my fault . Valvoline White bottle oil , blocked bypass , Wix filters . No "Break in" oil or any other snake oil crap.

Maybe i'm just the luckiest guy on the planet , or just the most meticulous .

-TOM

 

I have the original lifters out of the 1986 454 I had, they have a hardened foot Pressed? on the lifter body, I wouldn't want any WO the hardened foot

 

non roller lifters should not be concave when new, they maybe concave when worn but never new

 

I believe they are convex when new, not concave.

That is correct.

 

Modern cam grinds have more aggressive lobe profiles, which increases wear, and they also require stiffer springs, which makes the problem even worse.

I don't think there's a magic bullet on flat tappet lifter failures. I think it's a combination of many things.

My last four builds have used hydraulic rollers - I'd rather spend the money up front than yank an engine back out.

 

I believe what Mike N just stated has merit. I also believe that what nasty Z stated in post #14 also has merit. After all, how many end users of hi-perf street driven vehicles send their engine blocks out to get the lifter bores checked and/or bored and indexed? Especially those who are just doing a cam swap? it sure isn't the majority. However I also believe that it does have to do with the choice of cam cores being used these days as well as the lifter materials. I'm not an M.E. and I'm not an expert. But after working in a huge aircraft manufacturing plant which employs 3000+ people, has a huge machine shop that I worked right inside of, and a heat treat department with huge auto claves and furnaces too, for 42 years, I'm convinced that metallurgy is very important to the end product and it's use.

And on top of that, when it comes to automotive camshafts, the situation with the availability issues related to cam cores effects the end product greatly. I've had detailed conversations with the tech guys from two camshaft companies, and they shed some light on that topic for me. Which doesn't make me an expert. It just opened my eyes a little bit to what's going on since the covid thing hit a couple years ago, and what it has done to the industry. I believe Mike Jones has a pretty good handle on things as far as the cam cores he obtains, ( at least as much as anyone can). And I'm not even a customer of his, so that isn't a plug for Mike on my part. I'm merely basing that on what he has told me.

As for me, I choose to just use roller cams, not only to avoid having a cam being wiped out, but due to the more aggressive cam lobe profiles that can be obtained with a roller design. However, that doesn't get you out of the woods when it comes to the potential for lifter failures. That goes back to metallurgy and quality of the product in question.

 

I would feel better about roller cams if I didn't hear about so many failures. I don't really understand the issue with cam cores. Every other part of the engine can be sourced from somebody that makes a part ten times stronger than the factory. How damn hard is it to make a decent cam core?

 

I've never heard of any roller cam failures either. Only flat tappet. I have heard of roller lifter failures, but that's a whole other topic really. The tech manager at a cam company explained the following to me, ( although this was about 18 months ago. IDK how much of this still applies, but my guess is that the situation hasn't changed much: He claimed that many of the blanks, (ie. the cam cores) come from over seas, and are pre-ground. as many as 10's of thousands of them sit on some island off the coast of CA waiting to be shipped, and there are often huge delays with that process, ( I don't understand why).

To further complicate things, he said that there are only two machine shops left that grind camshafts in the entire USA, (the rest are overseas I assume but he didn't specify that). I believe that he said both shops are in Michigan, but don't quote me on that part. During covid one of those two shops shut down for 6 months because so many of their employees were home getting paid due to the covid thing. That created an even greater back log.

He also mentioned something about there being only so many cam cores to go around when it came to certain alloys. There are several different alloys. He made it sound like the tougher alloys are first distributed to or for the high end pro race teams, but there again, that was the part of the story that he wasn't specific about. So according to what he said, there aren't very many places left in the USA that grind the cam cores. The thing I know for certain is 7 or 8 years ago, my brother waited merely two weeks for a custom ground camshaft, ( it was a flat tappet). In late 2021 I waited 4 months for a custom solid roller cam, and in early 2022 my brother waited 6 months for a hydraulic roller custom cam.

I believe that was a clear indication of the supply chain problem that I was told about. So apparently there aren't nearly as many places which grind camshafts here in the USA, as there are that machine crankshafts, connecting rods, and pistons. That's what i was told by people from two different camshaft companies. That leaves me with the impression that either some companies end up getting cams that are machined overseas, or due to supply issues, they supply the customer with whatever type of alloy for the cam core that they can get, regardless of whether or not it's the best choice for the application in question or not.

This might not apply to every cam supplier though. They might be certain cam guys who have stock piles of cam cores sitting in their place of business. IDK. But based on what I was told, it isn't places like Comp, nor Lunati.

 

I think if people actually ran their roller bbc roller-cammed motors a lot we’d see more failures. Most of these cars get motors and then are parked with minimal miles a year put on.

 

So I have had 2 customers this year re order camshafts. Both BBC...one was 17 years old with 89K miles and the other was 14 years old with 52K miles. The 89K was a billet core with Morel 4603's in a 468. Never pulled a valve cover. The second was a 509 and the 2nd owner re-ordered off the original Straub Tech invoice he got with sell of car. Don't know about spring maintenance but again Morel 4603. Neither cam over .640 lift, Medium Low Intensity, street car builds. I would estimate both of these at least 575HP to 625HP. I feel both applications that both did quite well.

 

I think if people actually ran their roller bbc roller-cammed motors a lot we’d see more failures. Most of these cars get motors and then are parked with minimal miles a year put on.

You might be right, but I put the old Isky 228/238 @ .050 hydraulic roller in my 496 back in 2009. I made several hundred drag passes and several thousand street miles on it through 2017. I then sold the car to a buddy. The new owner doesn't use the car near as much as I did, but that cam & lifters are still fine.

I traded that car in 2017 for the 65 Impala I have now, and installed a newly rebuilt 355 with a Lunati 219/227 @ .050 hydraulic roller. In 6+ years I've put right at 10,000 street miles on it and probably 150 - 200 drag passes. No issues.

All that said, those are both pretty mild grinds, nothing extreme.

 

My comp cam hyd roller and 4603 morel lifters are from 2006-2007, 25 000 miles did some valvetrain service 5 years ago parts still looked good. Nothing extreme 242/248@050 .621 .616 lift. Cam is on a CMC 8660 core. Not bad for a junk cam from Comp cams🤣

 

Pardon me if I'm stating the obvious. But I'm pretty sure that a lot has changed since 2007. And not for the good.

 

I have about 10k on the 502 with the (ready everybody….) Comp Xtreme HR and Morels. I won’t inspect anything because something will be wrong.

 

My fix of HFT failures is : Johnson Short travel Hyd Roller lifters. Johnson out of MI, not Johnson hylift

 

The only reasons that I feel anyone would use a flat-tappet cam over a roller is (initial) cost or they already have a FT cam(s).
Add up the cost of "fixing it" after a wiped FT cam/lifters and those overall costs get a lot closer.

It makes no sense (to me) with all of the issues present with flat-tappet cams (or oil - or break-in) to justify their use.

Older cams/lifters are almost certainly made better, with better metallurgy, better tolerances, etc. so if you already have one (or more) and choose to use them, good.

If you're shopping for a new cam, unless the cost is prohibitive, go with a roller...

Are there racing classes that mandate flat-tappet cams?

 

The only reasons that I feel anyone would use a flat-tappet cam over a roller is (initial) cost or they already have a FT cam(s).
Add up the cost of "fixing it" after a wiped FT cam/lifters and those overall costs get a lot closer.

I agree. Maybe some guys are a little turned off, or even intimidated by the extra step of having to check the end-play after a roller cam installation. But I believe Cloyes is at least one manufacture that makes a two piece timing cover that makes that step a whole lot easier, (no trimming of cam buttons required).

 

perhaps some of the old timers can chip in - do you guys remember losing cams back in the day when these cars were new(er)?

I just think that the BBC with its goofy compound valve angles doesnt really "like" a ton of valve pressure or lift. The pushrods are sitting on an angle on the lifters, which means the lifter is riding hard on the sides of the lifter bores...cant be good. Not to mention the high lift lobe is trying to push the lifter sideways, and the high spring pressure fighting the lifter trying to come up. Its amazing this sh!t lasts as long as it does lol!

 

I have never had a HFT go bad in any engine. But, I go to extreme lengths to ensure the cam and lifters have every chance to live. One step that I have done that most do not is asking the machine shop to hone the lifter bores after hot tanking. These old blocks can experience core shift and metal fatigue after all these years. The heating/cooling process the block goes through at the machine shop may have a very slight effect on the bores. It costs a few dollars more but again, I've never had a failure.

 

That one move would have saved my wifes 350 from losing her cam at startup. Many pros say today it is the lifter bores condition is the main reason for so many failures.

 

NOS BBC cam sold on ebay Oct 15, 2023--$1580.11 (plus shipping).

NOS GM 3863143 Camshaft Big Block Chevy Solid Lifter 396 427 454 Yenko COPO LS6 | eBay

The part number for this cam is 3863143 as shown. The cam itself is stamped 3143 as shown. The GM "143" cam was used on 1965-1970 L78 396/375HP, 1966-1969 L72 427/425HP(COPO/Yenko), 67-69 L71 427/435HP, and 1970 LS6 454-450HP engines.

www.ebay.com

 

I had a cam I bought in 2010 go flat in my truck, now I just don't deal with hft cams, by the time you clean all the crap out of you engine and put new bearings in it you could have put a roller in it, I have a good friend that built a nice 455 for his 67 tempest and I begged him to put a roller in it, he wouldn't come off the money to do it, he put a hft in it, guess what happened and guess what he's doing how?