Re: Dart/AFR foow comparison, real world, out of the box.

so if I give you my 305's you're gonna fix all this right??

 

Re: Dart/AFR foow comparison, real world, out of the box.

so if I give you my 305's you're gonna fix all this right??

I got plans for your heads.
I don;t think the CNC chamber version would have quite these problems, but that's only an assumption. I know I have to fix these, for sure. Wasn't planning on it, but I can't in good conscience ship these like this.

 

Scott, when you say left port are you talking if the head was facing you this would be the left side? Or the port that turns left?

 

Scott, when you say left port are you talking if the head was facing you this would be the left side? Or the port that turns left?

C'mon Chad...really?
Left turn, Clyde. The bad port. The left turn vs. the right turn. The port no one ever publishes numbers for on conventional BB heads (except maybe Edelbrock).

 

You have me confused. Your telling me the Dart flows better on the left port rather than the right?

Then your saying your disappointed?

Did you check the floor and roof speeds?

Did you type it wrong?

 

In your opinion, what effect would a 2.30" intake valve do to the Dart flow numbers? I ask because the Dart 310's I have came with the 2.30/1.88 valve combo, along with a cut to net 114CC. Did appear that there was some bowl work performed to accomodate the larger valves. Heads were new in the boxes when I got them.

 

In your opinion, what effect would a 2.30" intake valve do to the Dart flow numbers? I ask because the Dart 310's I have came with the 2.30/1.88 valve combo, along with a cut to net 114CC. Did appear that there was some bowl work performed to accomodate the larger valves. Heads were new in the boxes when I got them.

Have you flowed them?
The Darts I have came with hand-blended bowls, and a decent job at that. Chambers are a little rough. Bowls are done with a burr and not cartridge-rolled, but none the less, decent work. The AFR casting finish is far nicer than the Dart.
The 2.300 valve would be a good upgrade if the short turn area can support it, and you needed it. I'll probably spend some time with my dividers and get some area measurements on these heads. I think for engines as big as 540" would really like this small runner with a 2.300 valve...provided it will support it. If you have to do much more than the valve job and bowl blend, it becomes a port job and you have to get into the short turn and sides and it's a lot more work. IN the end you have a really good head and nothing you can buy off the shelf, but costly. I wouldn't use the 2.300 valve on a 4.25 bore based-engine unless you're turning some serious rpm.
JMO


ETA: LOL...I don't think that answered your question so I'll say this: I'm not sure just adding the 2.300 valve would net a whopping difference in flow numbers. Maybe more low lift flow due to more curtain area off the seat, but AFA overall peak numbers, not much; but that's just a guess. Again, it goes back to what the rest of the port will support.

 

Sheesh, man. My bad. Yes, I typed it wrong. Sorry. I go fix. Thanks Chad.:beers:

 

Sheesh, man. My bad. Yes, I typed it wrong. Sorry. I go fix.

OK much better! I was thinking that would make me happy! LOL..

 

No, didn't have them flowed. First used them on a 4.320 x 4" hyd roller motor. It was a disappointment, not surprised. Heads are now on a 540" hyd roller motor. Loads of torue and killer throttle response on the 540.

 

But doesn't Dart do extensive wet flow measuring?

 

What's with all the dots, guys? Is that like a tag?

OK...back from the flowbench.
Basically all I did was some chamber work (OK...a lot of chamber work) and a little more blending in the bowls. I'm pretty happy with the intakes although I'd like to see less right/left difference, but that's just the way these are without a lot of work. The exhaust still needs work, but better. I think I know what to do next with that. It's all in the chambers.

right/left/ex

.2 152/148/131
.3 220/219/168
.4 282/286/212
.5 333/327/249
.6 370/350/268
.7 383/355/277

I hate to say it, but there's no way on God's green earth these heads flow what AFR says they will as-cast.

 

I hate to say it, but there's no way on God's green earth these heads flow what AFR says they will as-cast.

It seems they did exactly that....flow what we claim.

The intake numbers are basically spot on (especially when you throw in the huge variables different flow bench and bore fixtures present) and we advertise ALL our exhaust flow with a flow tube which can add 20 - 35 CFM depending on which head and what exhaust port we are discussing.

Flow that exhaust port with a 2" - 2.125" flow tube and let us know what it goes.

Also, for the record, when you call the AFR Tech/Sales line we strongly recommend our CNC chamber upgrade on every "as cast" BBC head we offer (305, 325, and 345), but we have to offer a price competitive piece without the CNC chamber porting for the guys working with a very limited budget.

The CNC chamber work wakes up the head bigtime as you would expect it would.....its the best $300 a customer can spend purchasing one of our as cast products and we inform all of our customers of this if we have the opportunity.

I think its important to note that all our "as cast" heads come with CNC bowl blends at no charge.....essentially your getting a partially CNC'ed head right out of the box and the CNC bowl work we do is critical for flow and repeatability.....a bonus when considering an AFR "as cast" head versus a competitors product.

Seems to me the heads did quite well and look pretty good for a budget small port runner (closer to 300 actual cc's) BBC head. This type of airflow will easily generate over 700 HP (low 700's in a reasonably well set up combination).....if you're looking for more you should be in a larger head that has more flow and power potential.

A copy of this thread has been posted on three boards (that I know of) and I will post a similar reply on all three of them.

-Tony

PS....I should also quickly add that AFR stands behind the product we produce, both with a lifetime warranty and a guarantee our heads flow within 2% of what we advertise. If ANY of you receive an AFR product and feel you have any issues with flow or quality, please contact AFR directly or myself personally for that matter. We will get you taken care of I assure you.

 

Here's a couple of pics of the chamber before and after:
Before, as cast, right out of the box:

After a little belnding around the majority of the seats:

The intakes responded nicely, but still seems to need some work around the exhaust.

 

mine next! I just got them off today, how about the heads and intake..victor jr 454r 2907

 

Scott,

Send the heads back to AFR so I can flow them before you rework all of them.

Im fairly confident they will flow alot closer to what we advertise than the numbers you posted on the exhaust (intake flow was right there) but anything is possible.

If the heads dont flow close to what we claim we will cover all freight and make sure they do when we send them back. I know you can do your own work and are capable of handling the situation but I would like to see the results on our flow equipment.

Also, can you post a pic of the pipe you are flowing it with....I would like to see how it compares to what we use at AFR.

We are close and shipping is only a day or two each way.

Thanks,
Tony

 

Scott,

Send the heads back to AFR so I can flow them before you rework all of them.

Im fairly confident they will flow alot closer to what we advertise than the numbers you posted on the exhaust (intake flow was right there) but anything is possible.

If the heads dont flow close to what we claim we will cover all freight and make sure they do when we send them back. I know you can do your own work and are capable of handling the situation but I would like to see the results on our flow equipment.

Also, can you post a pic of the pipe you are flowing it with....I would like to see how it compares to what we use at AFR.

We are close and shipping is only a day or two each way.

Thanks,
Tony

Thanks for the offer Tony but there's just no time left on this project, otherwise I'd be happy to work with you on this. I'll get a pic of the pipe when I have a chance.
I hope you recognise this isn't meant to be a "bash AFR" thread. I really like these heads.

 

This post is very interesting! can you do a brodix rr 294 when you get a chance?
Im really looking into the AFR 305s and the Brodix 294s

 

does seem a little strange. posts up a negative comparo then blows off offered help? What's wrong with this picture?

I'm not "blowing off" offered help. Sorry it looks that way but there are scheduling issues that my customer isn't willing to work around. That part isn't really anyone's business but I thought I'd offer an explination.
I got a very nice call from AFR today offereing to fix the heads and even CNC the chambers for free. You can't ask for much better customer service than that. Unfortunately the timing isn't up to me. I'll have these done tonight, back on the bench tomorrow, and out the door the next day as per the customer's wishes. That puts them, me, and my customer about a week behind schedule as it is. It also puts me a good 8 hours into these heads that I don't get a dime for, but that's my customer service. My responsibility is to my customer, not AFR or anyone else here.

 

My 335 AFR heads were all done at 380 cfm and 382 on the good port. This was done on a SF 600 flow bench with a 4.5" bore plate.

 

I'm sorry I posted in this thread.

If this turns into the usual flame war over this and that brand of head or porting shop it's history. Sooner rather than later.

 

I'm sorry I posted in this thread.

If this turns into the usual flame war over this and that brand of head or porting shop it's history. Sooner rather than later.

Tom. it's OK. I think you fell a little victim to 5325user's trying to instigate trouble. He's from another forum, was banned from Perf. Boats permenantly for doing nothing but the same, and a few other sites as well. He's just starting trouble and his main targets here are/will be me and Straub.
Just wait.
You'll see.
As far as this thread, I was hoping it wasn't seen as a bash AFR thread. It wasn'y meant to be, but I can see how it'll probably turn that direction, but not by me if it does.

 

My take on this was that the OP didn't have the time frame to accomodate AFR and the end user both so he took care of the issue at his own expense. Admirable and great customer service to boot. Kudos to Mamo for the offer to personally check and fix his product. Not sure if any other cyl head mfg rep/designer would even respond. It would be nice however to receive a product which was exactly what it is supposed to be. These days engine parts are not cheap by any stretch.

 

I'm just in total burnout on these head threads going south.

Scott, I'm sorry I questioned your integrity, stupid of me since I had no idea what your customers needs were. It won't happen again.

 

Tom, you are the bestest modfurcator eva. :beers:

 

Did you get the heads fixed up? Shouldn't have took much? Couple swift marks with the grinder usually works.

I've been doing a couple heads and learning from one of the best that's not far from me. About to invest in my own SF600. Yet to master the valve job though. Never knew how important it was.

 

Did you get the heads fixed up? Shouldn't have took much? Couple swift marks with the grinder usually works.

I've been doing a couple heads and learning from one of the best that's not far from me. About to invest in my own SF600. Yet to master the valve job though. Never knew how important it was.

LOL..."couple swift marks with the grinder"?? :noway:

Update:
I finished the chambers on these last night and hopefully can get them on the bench today or tomorrow morning.
As far as AFR and them helping, well I have to say they've gone out of their way to help on this within the constraints of time. I received another call yesterday, this one from Tony with another offer for help that I did accept, and they even offered to make up for some of the lost time on these heads. Thanks Tony and Rick for your efforts here. You guys are outstanding.

I want to reiterate something...this thread wasn't really about AFR or Dart. Was I disappointed? Heck yes, but I could have used "BrandX and BrandY" to make the point, and that is; if you don't care about the flow characteristics of the head and are just looking for a basic performance upgrade like most are, that's fine, but if you're depending on the advertised flow numbers to meet a goal for a specific combination, like I was, you need to verify that you're getting what you need. One way to avoid this is to buy the CNC chamber option which the manufacturer has way more control over, instead of the as-cast versions which can vary considerably from head to head.
Again, thanks to AFR for their efforts here. It speaks volumes. :thumbsup:

 

clean up in progress

 

Cmon, I was in the middle of reading(without posting) and I clicked on page 4 and it was gone...............:sad:

 

Ya'll just been Flashy Thing'd.

Tom- you look good in black. :thumbsup:

 

Ya'll just been Flashy Thing'd.

Tom- you look good in black. :thumbsup:

Back to work!!!

 

Hey Scott, you fix that valve job and you would find your advertised flow.

 

hope and change , back to grazing now .