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For everyone on this site that's been following the constant "battles" between many of the most popular head manufacturer's over "who's head's the best?", I've put a link below to a site that will offer a real eye-opening run-down from some of the best head porters in the nation about almost ALL aspects of the entire operation and some really deep details.

A good friend of mine, who "hangs" around there contacted me about it this weekend when this particular post showed up there, and directed me there.
I hope the link works the way I figure. If not, I'm sure you'll get there one way or another.

If you have time this is most definitely one "red-hot" topic. Believe me, this WILL fill in many or all of the blanks. Thanks Gary in N.Y.

P.S. I'm going say this while I'm here, it will pretty much explain why high-end units cannot use ANY fully CNC'd option to be in any sort of "serious" competition. I've posted many times here before, we order very few CNC'd pieces, ALL of our own "serious" high-end units are finished with the old
"tried & true" in-house "hand-porting". I could mention some names up here, that many would recognize immediately, that we've done some "major" final porting for on units that were destined for the "record-books", but I'm not going there now. I've been "hammered" a while back for "name-dropping", and it's not needed here anyway.

http://www.speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4579&sid=0d6377a64d3eda503f57133d75a9641d

 

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Apples to Oranges???

There's no a mention of "comparison" anywhere in my original post above. The post (link) merely gives some insight into the entire "CNC" issue AND general business practices. It's like I've said all along, over here we don't really care about "CNC'ing" OR brands. Makes no difference to us. If you
"read-between-the-lines" you'll get an education more from a business standpoint.

I know many here believe I "hammer" one major player most often, well let me "continue" that saga. The very same customer, who chose these heads, CANNOT get his spark plugs (2) in his newest cylinder heads. Originally he had the factory iron heads in place, then replaced those with a pair of Edelbrocks, not an issue anywhere with that upgrade, not one single issue! Now he goes with the present set and he CANNOT get a couple of the spark plugs to go. This customer is no "dummy" and has more "savvy" than most. He proceed to modify the excellent looking pipes, I believe it's a custom set of George's from "Kook's Headers", with a 5# ball-peen hammer and a pipe. He was never told about the plug relocation! He did ask that specific question and was told that there would be no problem in that area, "if the Edelbrocks were Ok then these SHOULD go". In all fairness he was told about "raising" the headers. He knew that would "fly". So for now he has gone "backwards" 2 steps, he has a car that wont "fall-out-of-a-tree" and one can no longer (for now) do the show circuit. The headers appear as they were hit by locomotive at a railroad crossing! (They WILL be fixed, I'm sure!)

(Add) At the other site pay particular attention about the remark pertaining to the early "Dart" heads from Maskin's. "THERE WERE/ARE NO GUIDES IN THESE 360 BB HEADS"! I have 2 sets here to do now, the guides are integral "Aluminum" with some .060" bronze liners AND this is the best part, they use 5/8" "short-reach" peanut plug-tapered seat plugs. In Aluminum threads with no plug inserts! Downright "cheap" for lack of a better word.
Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. The manufacturers, and this includes just about ALL of them, use these issues, "CNC'ing", inflated CFM numbers, etc. to sell heads. This isn't anything new!

Double P.S. With respect to AFR's "dilemma" with the premature "valve tip" wear issues, I have a number of Manley's here with the identical issues. It was a few years ago, I saved them in a box for my customer but he never picked them up. Ater speaking to K.C. down at Manley about it their first response, (quote) "those are not our valves" (end quote). They had the
"Manley" name imprinted. I sent them down and what do know, "lo and behold" they're Manleys! We knew what caused the issue and they finally confirmed our suspicions. The "key" part here, they involved the Dart SB iron
"assembled" heads sold through "Summit". This was a while back, and I would assume it's been corrected by now. So you see, we're not predjuice, I tell it like it is, it's like that proverbial saying "don't kill the messenger because you don't like the message"! If you "link" this last issue to the "missing guides" above in the "old" 360's, it's a "message" about the business aspect. If you're "savvy" you get it, if not "oh well"!

 

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The post your are referring to is talking about cylinder heads you are not going to touch for less than $5-$10,000 in some cases.

Hi Mike, this is off the issue for a moment, but I pulled this out of your response to clear up THE major "beef" I had with the heads my customer chose. If you follow this closely you can do the math, it's not that complicated!

Customer purchases heads from AFR after discussing the overall combo with them, it's all their recommendations. Purchase price, 3200.00 with freight. Now follow me here,

AFR 335's, CNC'd, 121 CC chamber's (actually 117), 1.550" Manley Nex-Tec's, steel retainer option. 275# closed/750# open, ALL as per AFR recommend!

Now I get the heads to do. I simply refuse to go with "steel's" and 1.550's.
Customer calls AFR, they talk him into staying the course with the 1.550's BUT, will not take back the "steels" (no credit option offered for the return of them) towards the purchase of the "Titanums". So he purchases the retainers from me, add 140.00 here plus 40.00 for spring install, and I'm still against the setup, but I go forward.

Let me shorten it here, get the unit on the dyno, "struggles" to get to 6500 RPM. I tell customer the INTAKE and the CARB is no-good for this unit, mind you, it's not breaking up, it just wont rev! This is where the 680 HP number came from, customer took unit and left. A week goes by, he called AFR, Tony specifically, and gave them the results. He explaind to them what I told him, the 7521 Weiand and the 850 (1030 CFM) carb was NO GOOD HERE, on this unit, but guess what? AFR tells him the springs are the "culprit", the very same springs they sold him from the start, from "day-1"! Gimme a break, huh!

Okay, add another 575.00 or so (to AFR's bank account) for the "new" 1.625's (remember what I said when he first brought me the heads?) AND another set of Titaniums for the same 1.625's. I explained to my customer this is considered "unarmed-robbery" in my shop!

You do the math I lost count. Must be close to $4000.00 with the freight. Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. The spring/retainer upgrade did "NOTHING" to the HP number. HE STILL HAS 680 HP and on top of it all he has to "scrap" his fairly new (2 years old)headers and visit George (Kooks) and get some more new headers. AND the unit is STILL "lazy"! Lesson learned for my customer: PAY ATTENTION TO YOUR ENGINE BUILDER!

Double P.S. This was my entire "beef" with the AFR heads. Was really more "policy" than a "bad" product! They were/are the wrong heads "from the box" for his unit. Remember for $3000.00 (or thereabouts) I could have given him the identical HP numbers with another brand of heads. He knows he's down 60 or better, but, not necessarily from his heads. With the solid roller setup he's using we're above the 800 HP number easily! Hyd. retro's are still in the 750 range, under 10:1, and with NO PORTING charges OR CNC options!
One more item, in fairness to AFR, this is a bit important, you have to remember you're raising the exhaust ports some 3/8" or better with almost ALL aftermarket Alunimum heads. That must be factored in to the header scenario. If you remove "irons" or in this case "Edelbrocks" you MAY have pipe issues!

 

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Ok,,
You started your first post with the comment regarding the "CONSTANT BATTLES" of who's head is the best
WHAT BATTLE????

Until you started whining about AFR there was no battle, most everyone agreed there are a number of excellent heads out there but my own opinion was & is that for an OUT OF THE BOX HEAD the AFR was right at the top of the heap.
No one said there were not other heads that are very good.if not outstanding right out of the box.
I have said many times that for a lot of applications I prefer the Brodix oval Race Rites.
I have heard nothing but good about the new BMF stuff.
I have a set of Dart 335CNC heads sitting here that look great although they do not flow anywhere near the AFR 335.
This is on my bench under the same controlled conditions BTW, not advertised or biased numbers in any way.
Does this mean the power will be down from the AFR, this I can't answer, haven't tried them yet & when I do their will be other differences so it won't be a completely fair test.

I have also said many times that in the right hands a good head can be an outstanding head & have mentioned the folks on Speedtalk as being some of the very best in the business.

It is no secret that I have the utmost respect for Tony at AFR both as a head porter & a friend & consider him one of the best too.
You on the other hand seem to take issue with him even though he has come on here & tried to be civil to you even asking you to call him if you had some real or perceived problem
I can see you took that advice to heart :
As I recall you did not even have the courtesy to reply to the posts.

(Ans.) I've tried a number of times, won't accept "personal" calls. Will not give out my phone number for "call-back" YET. Called at 12:30 PM today!

And I must ask,,
What the hell does the AFR problem with the new 8mm valves have to do with anything?
What is your point"
When AFR steps up to the plate the way they did regarding this problem on more than one open forum you have nothing to say but you obviously read it
Where the hell were you then?

(Ans) Don't know the "behind-the-scenes-deal" here? Did AFR order the valves "as-is" or did vendor screw-up? Either way it's an AFR issue not a vendor one (maybe)!!!! I HAVE been "behind the scenes", I'm not sure if you understand what message is here but I've been down this road before! As I said with Dart/Manley. I will leave it at that.

You take a post that is a generalized view of some of the best people in the cylinder head design business talking about heads that are at the top of the food chain & you link to it as if it backs up something you have discovered trying to say that it relates to what I feel are one of the best "out of the box' cylinder heads out there.

(Ans) I have one of those people on my "team".

I don't have a clue what your passion is with AFR but just about every chance you get you seem to feel the need to rehash old crap & slam them in general & Tony in particular.

(Ans) Reread the chain of events between my customer AND AFR (in this post). I didn't sell the heads, I didn't port the heads, I was "handed" them and requested to "build me a unit". The pieces THAT AFR RECOMMENDED are lying around here somewhere! THEIR "replacements", the 1.625 Nex-Tec's didn't "fit" THEIR own retainers. Manley got involved in this discussion, and AFR took the "Titaniums" back! Customer got the Manley's.

Out of the multitude of AFR cylinder heads out there you seem to be the only person who consistently has a problem, can't make power and generally whines about them.

(Ans) I personally don't have 1 single issue with the heads, however, my customer is very agitated! Go back and add up the numbers. It's actually the ONLY assembled set I've used here AND I tried to warn the customer ahead of time. Don't buy assemblies!

I don't know of anyone who doesn't know that with a lot of aftermarket heads & headers sparkplugs can be a problem but you of course have to point at AFR??

(Ans) In total agreement here! I didn't make the heads nor the headers.
How is it there are so many cars out there running complete with 8 plugs & headers??

Do these folks know something they are just keeping secret from you or what?

You then go off on a rant about how you bitch about all brands, not just AFR but this is usually when someone calls you on your posts.

(Ans) Go over to the "Engine" section, "Pan Gasket leaks" there's something you personally may find of interest!

Here are some of your other bits of valuable information over the past year or two

You get on here & talk about using springs that are 300/800 after I have posted probably a dozen or so times about the merits of enough spring pressure with a roller & the bad things that happen without enough spring.

(Ans) That's much pressure at stop signs, traffic lights, etc. We run lower numbers on street units and the Vette in the photo has the same lifters after 15 years. The "unit/use" determines the pressure! There's an upcoming SB with near 1200# open. Won't be any stop signs to worry about though!

Yet just a few months ago you were advocating using 5/16" pushrods in a rat is a good thing because they are lighter
(damn but I love this one :sad: )

(Ans) That unit's out for 2 or 3 years now (I think) and not a single issue running 89 octane AND near 750 HP. Neither me nor my customer nor "the unit" has any issue with the "5/16" pushrods. If I could get a deal on the 5/16" guide plates I'd use them more in hydraulic builds! P.S. This is also a -8 Comp Cams blank, you know, "cast".

You have made statements like torque plates do nothing & you have proved it,

(Ans) According to my friend at "Speedtalk" this previous statement I posted has been confirmed by someone from the "Northeast" doing "CNC" block work with reference to the "good" blocks! These .375"+ thick bores (at 4.500") simply "refuse" to recognize ANY block plates!

You imply that you seem to be the only person who knows how to gap a ring & most of us "other engine builders", the ring manufacturers, piston manufacturers, Major OEM's since the 1980's don't have a clue because they have gone to a wider second ring gap.

(Ans) We do the gaps where I say while I write the checks! Unit build dictates end gaps, period!

You talk about your "300 units" you did last year,,,, this is an engine a day for Christ's sake

(Ans) You seem to take excerpts to suit your needs, if you've followed along here, there's 4 of us. 300 divided by 4 = 75, 75 divided by 52 (weeks) = 1.5
per week. Piece o' cake!

You have said you have like 100+ Dart & Bowtie blocks in stock??
Hell, even Dart doesn't have 100 blocks in stock,,

(Ans) I have OVER 300 blocks in stock, at least 30 (at this point in time) are new. Most are Bow-Tie BB's. I carry over 6 digits (starting with a "2") in inventory. I have no problems today with respect to the new "breaking" oil pumps! P.S. I don't think I said 100+ Dart/Bow-Ties, but there probably WAS that many here at at one point!

You have said your good friend is Bill Mitchell
Then you say you will not use any of his stuff because of quality control

(Ans) He's an "old" friend, still! The quality control issue has gotten better!

I could go on but if anyone doubts I speak the truth just do a simple search on all of your past posts.

And,,, now the "good part",
You have come on here many times & given excellent information, helped a number of folks with problems and you have obviously been around this stuff for a while so,,,,
How about getting off the AFR bash-box & sticking with the good information.

(Ans) I WILL sort this out with Tony when I reach him, these "guys" up-the ladder are not always easy to contact.

AFR has an excellent head,
Dart CNC are an excellent head
Brodix has some excellent heads
Hell, even RHS may get their act together soon

(Ans) NOBODY will ever get in here again with ANY brand of "pre-assembled" heads, I don't care who's they are! You usually end with "spare-parts". I buy no heads with components.

PS,,, Ok, I am done now,,,,,

(Ans) Read the answers to Mike's questions in the quote! Thank you! Gary in N.Y.

(Add) The CNC'd chamber is a MUST for the general public, the CNC'd runners are a "good" idea also, the "base" head choice is the most "critical" one for the entire unit! Most people really can't make that choice, however, when the dyno runs "steady" you use these numbers to fall back on for the upcoming "platforms".

P.S. I will make this recommendation here, DO NOT call the head manufacturer's for recommendations, none of them, call the most "reliable" engine builder(s) you know! Let HIM contact the mfr. for answers, it's that simple. Unless you have some "contacts" I doubt you'll get what's best for you. You may just be talking to "the apprentice" on the tech line. I hope I covered most of it? Thank you!

 

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Quote Gary/NYAns) I WILL sort this out with Tony when I reach him, these "guys" up-the ladder are not always easy to contact.

B.S. I'm nobody; not a Great Engine Builder! Tony answered MY email the next day. You are lying to yourself and thinking that others will believe it because you do. Other have dealt with Tony and recieved fair treatment. How do you think you can convince them that they are wrong and you are right?

Hi Ken, I have no reason to say what I did without meaning it! I couldn't leave a call back number I was on the road today in another shop. I'm not going the "e-mail"" route! The operator told me and I (quote) "Tony's not available for today, he's doing some R & D out in the shop" (end quote). This I believe! He'll get a call from me! Thanks, Gary.

P.S. The info above, ALL of it, is exactly how it went down, believe it or not.

 

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Hmmmm....

Let's see....the voice message I left on my voice mail goes exactly like this:

-----------------------------------------------------------
Hello....

You've reached Tony Mamo

Due to an R&D project deadline and the upcoming PRI show I will not be taking phone calls for the next two weeks, but will be checking my messages reguraly and will be returning phone calls betweem 1 and 3 PM pacific standard time.

In the event this is an emergency please contact Monica at extension 119 and she will have me paged or you can call back and press one to speak with any of our sales techs.

Also, you might try emailing me at "tony@airflowresearch.com"

Thank you very much
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Any of you that want to verify that message feel free to call me directly at AFR....it will be on my voicemail till I return from the PRI show.

And yes....Monica later informed me that Gary called (earlier this morning) and no I didnt answer her page because I was working on one of our valvejob machines when she paged me. Also, he wasnt willing to share his phone information. What does being on the road have to do with anything?....Im sure a man in Gary's position has a cell phone glued to his hip.

You know what I'm doing now?....I'm handling emails and returning phone calls just as promised. It's between 1PM and 3PM pacific standard time. The people that really wanted to reach me left me a voicemail, PM, or dropped me an email....simple stuff.

And the hits just keep on coming....

Tony M.

Hi Tony, I called 2 times, wasn't going to tie up any of my customer's phone lines for my personal business. Will try again tomorrow. I spoke to Jeremy, he kinda "chuckled" when I told him who I was, mentioned this site to him! I'll explain more on the phone, I had strict orders from my customer NOT to contact you in the beginning. I won't rehash it here. Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Look at all the free "ink" (good or bad) you guys are gettin' up here!
A lot cheaper than National Dragster. 1500 or so "hits".

Double P.S. I HAVE NO CELL PHONE. DONT WANT ONE. Any one of my customers/friends can vouch for this. "A man in my position", I clean the sink, the toilet, and the dishes here, build the units, repair the tools and take out the garbage, I mean trash. I do the "vehicle" repairs and I walk the dog! I didn't realize I even had a "position"! Thanks for "cluing" me in. Have a good night.