To me ,a numbers matching vehicle (engine stamps/VIN) is only that once.
When you replace a block or other components ,it's no longer numbers matching.
Stamping a numbers "correct" block to show it's original to me ,just isn't right.
Mill the pad & leave it blank is more honest to me.
Go buy a numbers matching vehicle for big $$$$$$ and then find out you have a "recreation,clone" ,or whatever the unscrupulous are calling bogus cars these days that they restamp.
Kinda like changing your DOB or parents name on a birth certificate -Yeah ,I know the DOJ does that.

 

I used to like cars restored to numbers matching, but anymore I'm tired of it. Far too many phony cars. They are just cars and are meant to be driven. People have gone cuckoo over this.

 

If they are restamping con vins on blocks, on the body or the frame they are breaking the law. Those marking fall under the same laws as the VIN plate.

I suppose none have really been hung for doing it but IMO they are crooks too. Trying to turn something that may have little value into some of more value to sell to some unsuspecting buyer is often called fraud. The old car hobby seem to be the only area where many see nothing wrong in making a fake car. They frown on making fake money and fake art, but piece together a Z28, re-stamp everything to appear original and sell it for a huge amount, nothing wrong with that.

 

This comment is a big distortion of Federal Law! Restamping is not unlawful unless there is criminal intent.

What if you decked your numbers matching engine block for some reason, who could tell you NOT to restamp the info that was there before?

Each State has it's own law and please tell the state who's law you are quoting if you comment.

Personally, I think the "Numbers Matching" thing has gotten a little juvenile. If a Classic buyer is uneducated, He/She should hire a consultant before buying. I get sick of the whining when some buyer finds out later.

I do not want irresponsible people to cry until we have a Nanny State.

 

Does anybody know why it is that in the Corvette and Camaro camps, restamping a block is almost a routine practice amongst restorers and in the Chevelle camp, it is just one step above murder in the first degree? Whole businesses advertise in Hemmings who specialize in Corvette and Camaro restamping, yet everyone is afraid to touch a Chevy or Chevelle. I just wonder, why the inconsistancy. Not arguing either side but I don't see a problem with it either way.

Phil

So have you done it Phil? or would you?

Maybe the Chevelle Camp has more integrity

 

Maybe the Chevelle Camp has more integrity

I go along with Mike, and many more here, on this issue. Maybe it's a 'feel-good' thing in other arenas or maybe because of the dwindling and limited numbers of real matching cars would dilute the membership into those that have and those that want.

Let's face it, there are only two reasons to stamp non-original numbers on a car's parts. You're either trying to make it into something it was not because you can turn a big profit, or you're trying to make it into something it was not because it makes you feel good. Option #1 is unethical if not illegal and #2 is unnecessary. Anyone can, and everyone should, be proud of what they own/drive because it's theirs, not because they put some badges on it or stamped a number on it.

To me, it's akin to the question often brought up here on TC about Gold Memberships in conjunction with Z16 Chevelles. For both, there were 201 created and that's it.

As the old adage goes, "If you have integrity it doesn't matter; if you don't have integrity it doesn't matter."

 

I think one of the reasons the Vette guys do it is because their cars can be documented for the most part.

The Chevelles are much harder to find original GM documents.

Therefore, I agree with Dale and Mike and Mike and Mike, there is most likely one reason someone is stamping a Block for a Chevelle. They want it to appear to be a real LS6 or L78 or...for future value.

Or they are stamping a block to make it appear to be a real SS when it is really not an SS...again for future value, sales fraud.

A vette didn't have the SS option. Therefore no one is trying to make a vette into something it's not. The only thing they can be doing is trying to make it a 427 vette instead of a 327 vette (for example).

But there are usually tank stickers and/or a registry and very good clubs to help someone find out the truth on what it was originally.

Chevelles were built in the hundreds of thousands. Vettes were built in small numbers. It is easier to keep track of the vettes than the chevelles.

I did not know the Camaro guys did the fake stampings. I am going to be on the lookout.

 

I did not know the Camaro guys did the fake stampings. I am going to be on the lookout.

I'm a member over at Team Camaro, and restamping blocks is seriously frowned on over there. I don't know of anyone over there that condones it. Most of us think restampers should be drug out in the street and shot.

 

Fraud is broadly defined as a deception made for personal gain. It's also a crime and a civil law violation. I couldn't think of a more clear cut case of fraud than restamping a block to match a specific car, installing that block into said car, then selling it as a numbers matching car to an unsuspecting buyer.

 

Numbers matching to me is the drive train the car came with down the assembly line and what was installed in that car new. I dont count motors even with the same date codes that are used to replace as numbers matching IMO, let alone a counterfeit re-stamping.

 

FWIW and at the risk of talking more about the TIRED subject of restamps...

I just watched a well known 70 LS-5 go across the auction block as Matching Numbers ( original engine, trans, and rear ). This car was sold within the last several months with full disclosure that the engine block was re-stamped., why... is not really pertinent now, but not for profit reasons... anyway, the car was sold and even the add said the engine was restamped. Fast forward to this new owner ( DEALER ) fully aware.. and BINGO.. it's going across the auction block as having an original engine.. I know because I was consulted on the car prior to Bids... and I also gave Full disclosure!!! to which the perspective buyer was very pleased to hear what I had to say....

In sum, this is what the scumbags do out there.. they are willing to risk Fraud charges and legal issues to make money...on the unsuspecting buyer, the buyer who does not do his homework!! This Buyer did the homework and was able to make an informed decision! Unfortunately, not everyone does their due dilligence!


So, even when someone Restamps a block and later tells teh world it is that way.. somebody will try and pawn it off as REAL!

Nothing Good comes from a restamp.. :noway:

Mike

 

Even when the seller tells the buyer of the restamp, the seller knows he can get more for the car, because the buyer will sell it as a numbers matching car after he buys it. The 2 parties never talk about it but it's probably understood.

 

Mike ( 66 Mystery ) Couldn't have been said better !!

Sam

 

lets all get together and call chevrolet historical society and demand they release all information they have (instead of saying it burnt in a fire). does anybody know the real reason?

 

chevrolet historical society

 

if the corvette until this day is the flagship of gm then why does pontiac,gm canada,buick, olds able to obtain original documents.something smells!!!!.i personally do not like the corvette for the simple reason that gm will never make anything faster. oh by the way i just saw the new challenger and the sticker was 41000 it looked cool for a second,then i realized that it was a overpriced,overseas built,unable to work on it yourself garbage,just like the new camaro is gonna be.did i mention the 2100 dollar gas guzzler tax!!!! what a joke!!!!

 

i personally do not like the corvette for the simple reason that gm will never make anything faster.

I am not a corvette person by any stretch of the imagination, but below is quote from an article on the internet about the Z06. If you don't think those numbers are respectable, you really shouldn't have done the Brown acid


the subject of this week's discussion: Does anyone really need a car that goes from 0 to 60 miles per hour in 3.7 seconds, that tops out at 198 miles per hour -- a car that one editor at Car and Driver magazine recently compared to "having a booster rocket at the end of your foot" and another described as "testosterone on wheels"?




Rocky

 

My dad bought a 64 vette from a very refutable auction,of course it was numbers matching,low original miles,etc...It actually had a 1965 high horsepower incorrect block when I checked it out.Fortunately the engine was more valuable than the original engine.BUT....Nevertheless,he bought a numbers matching car(which could be translated as meaning ANYTHING as far as the auction is concerned.Maybe the vin matches the title,or the tire pressure matches the glovebox sticker.Who cares?Assume Everything is fraud,unless Grandma has the protect-plate,A-title,and a notarized witness statement from the day she bought it(then you'll at least feel better).These cars are worth stupid money,and someone will always be selling you Exactly what you want to buy.

 

fyi

Chevrolet produced more vehicles than all the other GM divisions combined, and therefore generated a much higher volume of records which were a storage problem.

Storage problem means HIGH COST

All it takes is one manger to say, Get rid of that crap, its costing us 5 million dollars a year in building and employee costs to keep it and we don't need it. 98% of those cars have gone to the shredder years ago.

 

I say a person can do what ever they want to their own car "its called cloning or recreating" sometimes even down too the stamps, but when they go too sell it they better pass on the correct info or its fraud.
Unfourtunality this whole restamping is going too kill the big guys, and drive the price down on the real cars. Now and forever, more and more people are considering all cars fake and its going to get worse, Its so bad that people are getting sick of it and are going the clone route and buying cars for the parts that are on it and not the pedigree. or possibly the fake documents. As posted many times thier are more LS6 Chevelles than ever produced.
Im not a real expert compared to a few members here but when I was looking for my car I wanted an unrestored pedigree that I have no doubt 100% that its real, Buying a restored car I would always wonder.
I believe the Corvette guys have accepted this and are buying a car for the correct parts, not heritage. "Im not saying that I agree with it but Its true and its only going to get worse.

We need a way of protecting these car and its not going to happen at GM, Im not sure what too do except for public registerys, everyone is registering the High end cars but we should be following the malibus that will eventually turn into SS cars.

 

I say a person can do what ever they want to their own car "its called cloning or recreating" sometimes even down too the stamps, but when they go too sell it they better pass on the correct info or its fraud.

No Offense but that's where you are WRONG... They can't do whetever they want... it's not always LEGAL to what you want.. READ ABOVE. and if you think it's okay to do whatever you want as long as you pass on the correct info. when you sell.. READ ABOVE... the next guy won't... It all stops when it is not done at all... there is a huge difference between putting emblems on a car to replicate a look of something it was not when it was born and RESTAMPING factory serial numbers and replicating factory Documentation!

The answer here is simple in my mind...DENOUNCE any form of it.. ALWAYS.. and don't even make statements like people can do whatever they want.. because people then think they can .. as that it's their choice and it will not affect anyone or anything... and it WILL!

Sorry, I just don't buy the do whatever you want, it's your car theory or its okay as long as you are honest when you sell it... :sad:

I don't know the answers.. I am just one passionate enthusiast trying to spread the word... Nothing Good comes from restamps!

Mike Crown

 

Maybe someone can add to this but there is starting to be a bit of a backlash in the Corvette community on re-stamps. I heard that at Vettefest a couple of years ago, the judges refused to give gold spinner awards to a couple of cars that had suspicious stamps. They were not acknowledged restamps....as far as I know....and I heard the owners were not happy.

 

Most all of you have missed the point of this post. It was not to debate the ethics of restamping a block, it was to question why the inconsistancy in the collector car hobby; that it is ok for Vettes and Camaros but a cardinal sin for Chevelles. As I stated before, I see nothing wrong with it either way just questioning the inconsistancey.

Phil

 

But its NOT "okay" in all aspects of the hobby... Even in the Corvette areana...

Sure, SOME people and SOME organizations have accepted restamping as acceptible, mostly because they were having a difficult time controlling it otherwise, etc...

I think it might also have to do with the people in charge of making decisions in these organizations... Perhaps someone high up in NCRS (etc) had a car without an original motor. But using their influence, then might change the policies that might benefit them...

Pardon the analogy, but why is it okay to add lead to childrens toys, to pollute the environment at will, destroy histoical artifacts, etc??? But in the US, it's against the law and we usually don't do this, etc... Point being, just because someone will thinks its "okay" doesn't mean its the right thing to do or that others will think its right...



Slightly off-topic (but close IMO), is the "survivor" or 'benchmark" car (we have these in the Chevelle hobby). Why is it that there is a certain percentage of "new paint" allowed, and how was that percentage determined? I'd say, more than a few cars have probably "conveniently" fallen within those guidelines... Of the guy that added an OEM, but used, exhaust system to his car (knowingly), yet experts still consider it "benchmark," etc... This isn't really a knock against those people that do a great job of judging the cars (Jeff, etc), but its just questionable onhow they arrive at "whats acceptible and whats not"... In actuallity, these people are experts in judging the condition and originality, but where did they get to decide what parts and percentages are acceptible (what governing body gave them the authority)? Unless they have trademarked the words like NCRS did with "survivor" etc...

 

It's news to me that it was EVER ok on Camaros!!?

 

Your question was and has been answered Phil. The question you need to ask is why do you see no problem with it? and I asked you, have you done this and would you?

Nobody lost the point.. it's ALL ABOUT DEBATING ETHICS!! and if you have some, it's not Okay to do this. What vette guys do or camaro guys do.. that's their business.. but quite honestly.. I will bet the Camaro guys message boards are the same as here.... which means their are BAD apples in every bunch.. Chevelle camps and Camaro camps and every other...

I assume those who say, They don't care one way or another.. would say they have done this or would if the need arises..:sad:

what say you Phil?

 

Your question was and has been answered Phil. The question you need to ask is why do you see no problem with it? and I asked you, have you done this and would you?

I have never done this but if I did, it would be devulged to the next buyer, just like other things that were done to it. I see no problem with restamping but I do see a problem with doing it to deceive a future buyer. Phil

 

Ok you guys are going too kill me on this one, I dont need too and never will but what would be wrong with showing at local show with a fake buildsheet restamped motor with SS454 badges, I dont see any harm as long as you tell them its a fake, now I dont lie and wouldnt lie. But their is no harm in it. Now the problem will be is it ok to restamp "I personally believe so as long as your never fraud someone and downright lie about it. The other problem is even if your honest and tell them its a restamp that doesnt mean they will tell someone its real later. I do agree the only way to stop it is to never do it and dont let it happen.
Now would I restamp just too fool a few people for my own satisfaction. Heck no. Its not worth the trouble rumors and a bad reputation.
Now the other side, is it legal??? No its not legal but who would do anything too you if you did it too your personal car "no one in my opinion" Im not even sure if they are doing anything to the people that fraud. Now should they prossecute YES they should but it still wouldnt stop the crooks. Sometimes I think people like jail time.

Wow no give me your opinions. WOW its going to be badddddddd

 

No Offense but that's where you are WRONG... They can't do whetever they want... it's not always LEGAL to what you want.. READ ABOVE. and if you think it's okay to do whatever you want as long as you pass on the correct info. when you sell.. READ ABOVE... the next guy won't... It all stops when it is not done at all... there is a huge difference between putting emblems on a car to replicate a look of something it was not when it was born and RESTAMPING factory serial numbers and replicating factory Documentation!

The answer here is simple in my mind...DENOUNCE any form of it.. ALWAYS.. and don't even make statements like people can do whatever they want.. because people then think they can .. as that it's their choice and it will not affect anyone or anything... and it WILL!

Sorry, I just don't buy the do whatever you want, it's your car theory or its okay as long as you are honest when you sell it... :sad:

I don't know the answers.. I am just one passionate enthusiast trying to spread the word... Nothing Good comes from restamps!

Mike Crown

Your question was and has been answered Phil. The question you need to ask is why do you see no problem with it? and I asked you, have you done this and would you?

Nobody lost the point.. it's ALL ABOUT DEBATING ETHICS!! and if you have some, it's not Okay to do this. What vette guys do or camaro guys do.. that's their business.. but quite honestly.. I will bet the Camaro guys message boards are the same as here.... which means their are BAD apples in every bunch.. Chevelle camps and Camaro camps and every other...

I assume those who say, They don't care one way or another.. would say they have done this or would if the need arises..:sad:

:yes: :yes: :yes:

 

For the record, I spend a fair amount of time on Team Camaro and Yenko.net and the VAST majority of people are against restamping in the Camaro hobby as well.

I own a "clone" because I like the look of the options that came with the SS and to be honest, I couldn't afford a real one in the condition that I bought this car. But I have NO restamped parts, NO fake trim tag, NO fake paperwork, and certainly NO restamped VIN. Cloning and restamping are two COMPLETELY different animals IMO.

 

For anyone who doesn't see a problem with restamps: Tell me how you'd feel if you just paid top dollar for a car with a buildsheet and matching numbers only to find out the buildsheet was a fake and that the engine and transmission had been restamped? Does it matter if the guy who sold it to you did the restamps or if they were done two or more owners previous?

If someone wants to build a clone down to the finest detail, more power to 'em, but why is a restamp required? The only purpose of a restamp is to make the fakery more convincing and the only reason to make it more convincing is to try to convince people it's real and not a fake.

EVEN IF the person doing the restamp has no dishonest intentions (I find this hard to believe), subsequent owners may portray the car as real or simply not know or understand the difference. Once they are out there, known or not, the hobby is diminished. Why do you think highly documented cars are bought and sold at such a premium? Because people want to to make SURE they are getting what they believe they are getting for the dollars spent.

 

Oaky Jim.. I will just ask you this... I read your last Post, especially this part:

what would be wrong with showing at local show with a fake buildsheet restamped motor with SS454 badges

and I have to ask.. Have you not read one word of what so many of us are and have been writing here? If you had, you could not possibly ask that question?? and is showing it a Local Show less fraudulent then showing it a National Level show??? Still trying to Trick People into thinking it is something it's not... it must be all about EGO BUILDING then, to have someone walk up to a car and say.. WOW.. Original engine too!!

and it begs the question.. WHY? why and for what purpose would you ever do this.. what purpose would it serve to bring the car to a local show or otherwise with it's Fake Build Sheet and Restamped block?? SEE ABOVE!! You don't get extra POINTS by any judge that I know of for having Fake or REAL Buildsheet on display.... You most certainly don't get extra points for a RESTAMPED Block at a local show and if you do... guess what? It's because you were trying to FOOL someone.. and that is Wrong! Same goes for doing this at the National Level. If you have a quality car.. Bring it! Bring it to the local show, Bring it to the national show.. and it will always get the Big Thumbs up from a guy like me and most others :thumbsup:...and likely if it is your cup of tea.. you will still get a TROPHY... but this issue is not about winning trophies. I don't think I have ever seen a car at a show that was stop traffic nice, quaility done and then looked at the DECK PAD and said.. "AWh crap.. it's doesn't have the original engine... I don't like it as much as I thought I did" :noway:

Listen to me.. wasn't I the one that said this was a TIRED topic and not worth hashing out yet again... Yeah, I guess I was.. but I guess when you are passionate about something.. you continue to try and convert even the diehards into seeing the light! :beers:

Good topic and glad to see nobody was harmed in the making of this Post!

Mike

 

No one would go to all the trouble to numbers match a car and then tell everyone it's a fake. It makes no sence, none at all. The motive is money. Plain and simple. The guy doing it will see it as a victimless crime. The idea that "it's my car" what does it matter, I'll do as I please has motive. He's a crook that's fooling himself. Next step is to fool the public. As soon as that large offer is made from a hobbiest he'll except. That sunday he'll add a little extra in the plate at Sunday service. Now he can justify his victimless crime. Mean while the new owner waged his kid's college money and promised his wife that he'll make about 10k in a couple of years off the car and repay Jr's college money. Now Jr's working at Mcdonalds instead of at college because ol'dad could'nt recover the money on that numbers matching Chevelle. MONEY is always the motive. Poor Jr!! LMOL!!

 

I agree 100%. Phil.

 

Guys you know or I hope you know I wouldnt stamp anything, Look at my tranny. My car was missing the original tranny so I searched long and hard for the most correct one. 2 grand later I found one.