Get a GM mini starter and be done with it.
There available for the 153t or 168t flywheel/flexplate.

 

I actually bought one and no matter how i shim it it just wont work consistently, wonder if i have the wrong gear on it for my flexplate? how do i know if i have a 153 or 168?

 

Mike,have you got a good set of heavy gauge battery cables on the car with clean tight connections everywhere?
Mike

 

Actually my main cable coming down is freyed/broke a touch (where it makes that big bend down by the starter), i just black taped it thinking it would be ok, maybe thats my prob??

 

You might try to make a heat shield . And yes, fixing the cable would be a good idea. Any added resistance in the starter circuits will be detrimental.

 

Another thing to add to the good advice already given, some starters have 9 teeth, some 11 teeth which correspond with either a 153 tooth or 168 tooth flywheel/flexplate to mesh properly.

For shimming, use a std. size paperclip which is roughly .020" thick and place it between the peak of a starter tooth and the valley of 2 flywheel/flexplate teeth. You should be able to put the paperclip in there without much friction, but not so big you have slop in it.

Make sure you have a good large ground cable with a clean tight connection going to either the engine block, head, or alternator bracket. Even if you fix the hot wire, the starter isn't going to work well without a good ground path.

Another good thing to have is a starter bracket.....I had to make my own bracket for the mini-starter and bolt it to the GM bracket. It'll prevent you from bending starter bolts and keep everything where it's supposed to be.

 

Another thing to add to the good advice already given, some starters have 9 teeth, some 11 teeth which correspond with either a 153 tooth or 168 tooth flywheel/flexplate to mesh properly.

Huh???

 

... I am having some serious starter issues. After an hour of running or so my starter just wont work without a half hour or so of cool down time. I just replaced it yesterday w/ a new one and within a couple hours it was doing the same thing,

What symptoms?

Slow cranking (Try and see if the dome light dims while trying to crank)? Or made an audable "click" from the starter, but slow/no spinning? This can be "Heat Soak" where the bushings in the starter motor have expanded enough due to heat that they are binding on the shaft... Can be made worse by bad cables and connections and headers.

Is there no sound at all when you turn the key? This could be a bad solenoid or the wire to the solenoid having too much resistance, to the point where its not allowing the solenoid to engage (which also switches the main power cable to the actual starter motor)... In this case, the main starter motor might be fine, just the solenoid is too hot... Another case for clean connections, etc...

Since the car never had these issues in the 80's, yet still has them after replacing the starter, I'd lean toward replacing the cable and cleaning all connections... I was checking the other day, and Summit has a Stainless Steel starter shield listed for $7, might be worth adding on the next time you drop the starter out, and maybe some insulation for the small purple wire down to the solenoid...

Another good thing to have is a starter bracket.....I had to make my own bracket for the mini-starter and bolt it to the GM bracket. It'll prevent you from bending starter bolts and keep everything where it's supposed to be.

A little clarification for anyone unfamiliar with this "bracket" (future topic searches, etc). GM used a small bracket on the very front of the starter motor (At least on Big Blocks), and it bolts to a boss cast in the block (near the dipstick tube on a BB)... Usually a PITA to get to with headers...


Wrapping the headers near the starter can make a big difference in the heat the starter sees, BUT it can cause problems with the headers. The extra heat can cause the header tubes to become brittle and crack. this might be worse because of the age of the headers...

 

What symptoms?

"This can be "Heat Soak" where the bushings in the starter motor have expanded enough due to heat that they are binding on the shaft... "


Sorry Tony, but with all respect I have to drop the BS flag on that one. Bushings like those found in a typical GM starter don't "expand" when heated, even when near headers. Our starters simply aren't that delicate.



"Another case for clean connections, etc..."

I agree. Cleanliness is next to godliness!

"Since the car never had these issues in the 80's, yet still has them after replacing the starter, I'd lean toward replacing the cable and cleaning all connections..."

Agreed.

"I was checking the other day, and Summit has a Stainless Steel starter shield listed for $7"

That certainly is a way to spend 7 dollars. Personally I'd spend the money on solder and flux and get my electrical connections working properly. You can't beat a soldered connection!


"might be worth adding on the next time you drop the starter out, and maybe some insulation for the small purple wire down to the solenoid..."

Why? If the purple wire is good and its connections are good whats the point?




A little clarification for anyone unfamiliar with this "bracket" (future topic searches, etc). GM used a small bracket on the very front of the starter motor (At least on Big Blocks), and it bolts to a boss cast in the block (near the dipstick tube on a BB)... Usually a PITA to get to with headers...

I can't stress strongly enough that hot cranking starter troubles are 99% caused by faulty, inadequate electrical connections. When you have replaced a string of starters and you still have the same problem you need to look elsewhere.

Remember, the definition if insanity is: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

My thanks to Albert Einstein for that quote.


Finally I wish to apologize for the way I mishandled the quoting process. I have never learned to do it correctly. The responses in the large box are all mine.

 

Do a simple test and find out if it is a heat soak issue. Grab a handful of house fiberglass insulation (remove all paper backing first). Jam it between the starter and the headers. If your problem ends, you know what it was.
Replacing starters just eats your cash supply.

 

If I were you and already bought a mini starter, I think I would keep working with it until I figured out what the problem is.

About the only thing that I can think of that would cause new starters to go bad so soon is if the starter drive teeth are getting worn down due to misalignment.
http://macc.chevelles.net/starter.htm

 

I don't think the number of teeth changes. I did a swap of the nose piece years ago when I went to a 621 bellhousing. I just removed the nose that was used with the smaller clutch / flywheel / b-housing combo and that was that. I don't recall ever hearing about the need for different numbers of teeth on the starter drive.

Headers are just plain BAD NEWS on starters. Not all headers are bad news but they can be. I had a GTO with headers and it was always killing starters. On days with even the slighest elevated temps it was a BIG PIA to start the car after it sat a few minutes. As soon as the car cooled the problem went away. The first few days with a new starter it was OK during the heat then ......here we go again with hot start issues. BTW this happend with more than one starter.

It took a day to fish that starter out with the headers on the car or a day to fish the headers out (so it seemed). One day I had a fire down by the starter when the positive battery cable insulaton melted off. Saved the car by putting out the fire and then I IMMEDIATELY removed the headers. I had changed batterieS, starterS solenoids and cables all to no avail.

As soon as the headers were removed guess what ? NO MORE STARTER PROBLEMS. Guess again how many sets of headers have I had since that lesson? ZERO. I know these things are required equipment for the racer types but in my mnd one fire and the near loss of my car was enough for me. Bye bye headers.

 

I don't think it has anything to do with the tooth count,I think it's just an older design.
Mike

From this site: http://www.lukedistributing.com/starters/autohpstarters.htm



PG260M Hi-Performance Starter for Delco P/N: 2-1590-DR-2
1.7kW, 12 Volt, CW, 11 Tooth Pinion

Used On:
Chevrolet Small Block or Big Block V8 Engines w/ 153-Tooth Flywheel
Lester Nos:
3631, 3838
Notes:
Upgrade the old, heavy 9-tooth, 10MT design to a high output, lightweight, 11-Tooth PG260M starter. Ideal for hi-performance, marine & street-rod applications. 2-1590-DR-2 has a 4-Terminal solenoid w/ relay & switch terminals.

 

You can wrap your starter with a heat sheild material from Autozone for about 35 bucks. That fixed my starter burning problem.

 

I may be wrong about the 9 tooth vs. 11 tooth meshing, I always thought they were made for their specific corresponding flywheel/flexplate tooth count.

 

Mike,I'm not 100% sure about it either,but the website I linked to suggested changing from the 9 tooth pinion to the 11 tooth pinion and the starter listed was for a 153 tooth flywheel. They made it sound like they were interchangable.
Mike

 

Big block starters are DIFFERENT than small block starters, ( They look the same ) What is different? Armature, Fields, Solinoid. Org. B.B. solinoids have light weight spring so they will engage QUICK. I have a mini starter on my 468, It is for a 88-91 262 Cu In. V-6.
Mine is a Delco. The V-6 starter has been spinning the 468 for three years NO PROBLEM.

 

YEs there are differences that are INTERNAL to the starters shipped with BB and small block cars Physical interchangeability and installed performance are different topics yet again.

The starter on my 454 LS6 Crate came right of my 350 CI low compression smog motor that was equipped with a TH350. I swapped the starter nose and am now running a GM 11 inch clutch with the 14 inch GM flywheel. At oone point that starter operated on an SB with the samll clutch and a small flywheel and small bell. What was different when it was on the SB versus the BB/ THe starter nose that was all that was different. The old 350 / 350 starter is still working with the 454 after 30+ years. I bought the car new in 72 and I still have the starter. Other than the swap of the nose the starter has never been opened up.

There is no parts swapping of pinions required when modifying a starter that was formerly used with a small flywheel / clutch / bellhousing for use with the larger flywheel / clutch bellhousing combo.

I don't know what that starter referenced on the link is trying to say. Perhaps the page that the link goes to is wrong? Perhaps the mini starter brand that is referenced does need a different starter pinon. Perhaps there is something in the geometry of that starter and its mounting that necessitates a different pinon? I can't say.

I can say that the GM starters I have worked with do not need a pinon swap. The original post in this thread was misleading at best and just plain wrong at worst. Someone could have read that and charged off to find a GM pinion with a specific number of teeth that in fact was never manufactured.

Someone posted "Huh?" in reply. That says it all without an elaborate response. "Huh ....what are ya talking about two different pinions each with a different # of teeth?" Huh?

 

It is the cable. Don't buy a cheap parts store generic replacement. You may not be any better off. Get some good cables.

 

Was the LS engine available in 1988? The point is this, people said there was no such thing as different tooth counts on Chevy starter pinions. Simply put, they were wrong.
Shurkey,I paid no attention to who the vendor was,it just came up in a google search. So trust them no further than you would any unknown vendor.
Mike

 

Old wiring....

 

New wiring for the ground bolting direct to the block...

 

Mike,it looks like you did great on the ground cable. I don't think you're going to be happy with that positive cable. Hopefully somebody on the board knows a source for a high quality heavy cable. I've always made mine but thats a bit of a pain. While your working on all of this take note of whether you have a good ground wire from the engine to the chassis and another ground from the battery to the body. You just can't have to many ground wires. Plenty of problems with our old cars are caused by missing or inferior ground wires.
Mike

 

Not sure how much heavier a guy would go, I used 4 gauge on the starter and 2/0 for the ground to the block. Not sure if I have a ground from the motor to the chassis, will take a look today...

 

Still doing it.... AAAAARRRRG!! Time for a starter shield, Im done messing around.

 

The issue is the heat that is soaking the starter. Shields and cables as big as the power cable running up to your house are NOT gonna fix this. You need a starter that is resistant to the heat load...something like a smaller starter that has more air flow around it OR removal of the headers.

Forget specific disclaimers about bushings melting and what not. The heat radiated toward that starter has thermal consequences for the rotating mechanism. Things swell up and other things transfer electricity differently at higher temperatures indusced by the surroundng header pipes.

The headers are the issue. You need a perfect starter / electrical system to operate wth those darn headers. You do not have that ...the proof is in the fact that the system works with the engine cool and FAILS with the engine hot.