Can be easily verified, we have a member here that works for GM Performance.

What a bummer, this could be a sign GM is in the death throws now.

Jeff

 

Can be easily verified, we have a member here that works for GM Performance.

Jeff

Who?

 

I wonder how much longer there will be NASCAR sponsorship/support, then? And if they go, how many teams will fold in all three series? Sad.

 

Not really a surprise ...how can they ask for bailout cash and still Pubically fund aPerfiormance division .........."back to the out the back door unofficial support days "

 

When you see the super gas mileage figures for the Corvettes over the past few years, there seem to be few cars doing a whole lot better, even the little cars. Sounds more like a headline move to appease politicians. I can't imagine the GM Performance Parts division not making money, even now. It's a big market. With what is already developed performance wise, I don't see that GM needs to do much more development for a few years anyway. 600+ hp for the Vette should satisfy most people. They still need some exciting cars to get people into the show rooms even if most end up buying the four door sedan.
On second reading, it sounds like they are just shutting down new performance development. Everything is in the future tense. They probably need engineers in the Volt programme and other gas mileage projects. When you are strapped for money, you have to take drastic measures. A tool and die maker on the Camaro project, told me last fall that the Z/28 was put on hold back then. The money has already been spent on developing the SS so I think you will still see it on the car lots.

 

When you see the super gas mileage figures for the Corvettes over the past few years, there seem to be few cars doing a whole lot better, even the little cars. Sounds more like a headline move to appease politicians. I can't imagine the GM Performance Parts division not making money, even now. It's a big market. With what is already developed performance wise, I don't see that GM needs to do much more development for a few years anyway. 600+ hp for the Vette should satisfy most people. They still need some exciting cars to get people into the show rooms even if most end up buying the four door sedan.

Drove from Phoenix to Tulsa, 80mph constant across W Texas, A/C blastin'....... avg mpg for the 1400+ miles, 32.1 430hp Corvette.

People just can't seem to fathom the mileage with the performance, especially politicians. They just want us to drive little boxes with tiny engines because they LOOK like they get good mileage. Just because their limo gets 8mpg is no reason to dump on us.

 

http://jalopnik.com/tag/high-performance-vehicle-operations/?id=5156124
The Camaro SS is not dead, it just puts any future performance vehicles on hold, the current ones are ok. Hopefully they get out of this fast enough to build me a SS Chevrolet Cruze:thumbsup:

 

Hopefully everyone who bought a foreign car can realize what their choice has done to our whole hobby!!!!

 

Exactly, no amount of Federal help is going to save them if a majority of Americans refuse to even look at domestic cars

 

Does anyone with more than two neurons to rub together actually believe that accepting "government", nee, our money, will not bring hackneyed politicians into the equation? When you accept help from anyone, that person or entity now gained some control over your life or business. Just picture Chuck "The Schmuck" Schumer dictating to you. Bah.

 

Well when GM sells a lot of cars and makes a profit, then it doesn't cut out other programs like GMPP, people in our hobby think not supporting GM doesn't affect them in anyway and it does.
And people not in our hobby think that only Japanese cars have quality and have never even driven a GM car but just assume they know it all. They then want to turn around and bash GM for layoffs and dont realize that their choice directly caused the layoffs.

 

And people not in our hobby think that only Japanese cars have quality and have never even driven a GM car but just assume they know it all. They then want to turn around and bash GM for layoffs and dont realize that their choice directly caused the layoffs.

And people not in our "hobby" make up the vast majority of the car buying public. The average consumer looking for a 4 door family sedan that offers the best quality(fit, finish, materials)/performance/dependability/refinement/appearence/re-sale value/price.

The average consumer isn't reading automobile publications or doing a ton of research. They come up with a list of vehicles to consider - often on recommendation from peers, test drive them, and buy one. If a domestic isn't on their list you have to ask "why".

Fact is the domestics, for a slew of reasons (and perceived quality/value is a biggie), have not had a volume selling vehicle that could go head to head with the benchmark imports (Camry, Accord) in the mid size family 4 door segment until just recently. The previous generation Malibu you say? Please, you can't be serious. Why has it taken GM until 2008 to get serious and come up with the new Malibu?

You may be tempted to argue that people buy imports just because they are imports. It didn't just happen that way, something is feeding that mentality, you have to ask "why".

Perceptions are hard to overcome. After years, decades, of sub-standard product offerings the domestics have conditioned the public at large into accepting as fact that the domestic brands are not worth shopping. It's slowly changing but it's going to take products that compete favorably in each commonly measured category as well as consistent quality, consistent marketing message about quality, and competitive pricing to turn things around.

Why are imports, particuarly Toyota, making such headway into the full size pick up truck market which, until recently, was OWNED by the domestics? The buyers in that market are increadibly loyal. Why are so many moving into Toyota trucks?

GM has proven it can be done, witness the new Malibu.

 

No its a direct result of the people that bought foreign...

yeh what he ^ said....


At least my Chevelle's value will increase in years to come....

Guess I'll be on the rocking chair one day talking about how there was this HUGE car company that was on top for so many years and how they made all these Muscle cars...

 

No, there is no single "direct result" what you have / had was the perfect storm. Oversight, undersight, unions, contractual obligations, retirement, health care, economy (which believe it or not doesnt revolve solely around the automakers), free trade, and a few others

To say that its a direct result of such and such is to over simpify a GREAT deal. Its a perfect storm + a comedy of errors and all of that entails a bunch more than "buying foreign cars" or "unions" only. Nothing is that simple but I understand people look for one target because one target is much easier to shoot than, say, 9.

 

Not selling cars may not be the only direct result but wouldnt you agree it is one of the biggest issues for a car company?

 

Just like I said last year that GM would ask for a bail out (LOAN) and they got $17 Billion and just like I also said that around March they would ask for another (LOAN) and it might topple at $ 20 Billion. Last year GM was only worth $20-$25 Billion so as I see it if they get another Loan the government is taking one hell of a gamble with tax payers money on a huge waste that may not ever pay back any money that they have been loaned. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out the numbers on that HIGH RISK LOAN!

GM should have gone bankrupt and been relieved from all debts primarily from the UAW and suppliers, ect.
I dont see GM making it, mainly because of what kind of vehicles they produce and the cost of the cars they make. I think the only way they can turn around things is to trim all the fat from over payments of all the cooperate structure all the way down to the janitor and with the UAW hanging over there heads it will never happen:sad:

 

Don't make the association of GM Performance Parts and GM Performance Division. They are separate. GM Perf Parts is more for our cars and stuff. GM Perf Div is the group who take newer platforms and create the franken-prototype vehicles that could turn into production models later ie: GTO based on the Holden. 90s Impala SS, Cobalt SS, Caddy CTS-V, etc. They basically do excercises in engineering to see what is possible to make. This is why that group is being absorbed back into the main lines and not disbanded. They will be back, and may even do some good by injecting ideas into their new projects.

 

Another likely excuse a monthly trip to the dealer.
Co-worker bought a new Toyota tundra ,after his first one broke a timing belt and wiped out the motor at 140K he then made weekly visits to dealership, they could get the tires to stop vibrating, then found months later had a huge recall on ball joints but he continues to support them. When was the last GM that needed that much work?
I have 150K miles on my truck, orig motor orig trans and still running strong. And there is no timing belt to break.

 

Thats why Toyota writes TuRD on the side of their pickups.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgVYOX-ZFAc

Great Commercial.

 

I was talking to a Toyota mechanic. He asked me to come over to their shop some time. He claimed that it is just as busy doing repairs as any GM shop that he ever worked in. It all boils down to perception. Quite often, perception and reality are entirely different. Sort of like going into Wal-Mart and thinking that you are going to get the cheapest prices on everything out there. Perception.

 

Yep, my neighbor has a new Malibu. He comes over and says, boy if I didn't have a wife and kids I'd get me one of those Corvettes. I say boy if I had a wife and kids I get me one of those Malibus........ It is a nice car.

 

The New Traverse seats 8 and gets 26 MPG no manual I dont think,
Does anyone make a car like this?

 

If you are going to play this game, get your facts straight.

GM's own site lists the Traverse MPG as 17 city, 24 highway for the front wheel drive model. AWD gets 16 and 23. Honda Pilot FWD gets 17 and 23, AWD gets gets 16 and 22. Both have available seating for 8.

I am not knocking the Traverse, it certainly looks like a nice vehicle, and competitive (on paper) as well. But you cannot compare one or two metrics and hold those up as evidence of superiority. It's the total package. I'm sure the sevearly panned Pontiac Aztec was best in class in one measurement or another.

 

as????
Ok I was off by 2, 24 MPG

 

Honestly, Subaru makes the closest thing to what I want. If it wasn't Japanese, I'd own one. It's a little smaller than I'd prefer, but bigger than anything else that compares, and gets the mileage too, with AWD on top of that!

The ONLY way I can justify trading my wagon off for something else is if it gets 30mpg. I get 24mpg from my full size Caprice... 2 more MPG isn't worth driving something that I don't particularly like. At 5 more MPG, I can "settle". I'm guessing I'll just keep what I have for a while.

 

Now, back to the original topic... I wonder how much of GM's engine development comes from the Performance division? One would think the engineering that goes into making horsepower, could also be relevant to making things more efficient.

 

To say that they don't make a car the people want because of the government is a bogus statement. It just keeps getting repeated over and over every time this comes up.
Even within EPA and Safety regulations they could still make something other than the cookie cutter copies of the Japanese cars that they have been making and build something that the people want. Like a regular old full size wagon! Chrysler Corp came close with the Magnum. But too high end.:yes:

 

There is always this. I dont think it is what you had in mind but still a pretty nice wagon none the less.

 

Yea its a nice looking wagon but how much $$ is it? $40K-$50K? Anything over the $20K mark is out of 70% of Americans price range now.

 

Hate to see GM quit performance, at least some of us will still have it. Might make our cars even more desirable just hope we can get gas for them.

 

People keep saying "GM's quality is better than it was in the 80s." How come the vehicles I had in the 80s were not great yet awesome compared to my early and late 90s vehicles, that rusted out in weird places, HVAC doors, and seat handles broke, parts wearing out prematurely? Several mechanics tell me my GMC "eats ball-joints" There are decades of design on this part, to not have it robust is inexcusible. Why would anyone who has been burned go back? Makes no sense. If you have been lucky enough to have a string of GM vehicles that didn't fail you, that didn't nickle and dime you to death, congrats, I am happy for you. But nothing short of me being dumb will allow me to get back into something I can't trust. It will take years of consistent quality builds of vehicles that retain their quality measures after the initial quality assessments.

Sure- of course imports need service work and breakdown - everything does at some point. Every car company makes an occasional lemon too, just law of probabilities. When a large number of people experience problems and make a change and then are happy... well, the people have spoken.

I want to buy GM again, when they have a consistent decade of used car quality on par with industry leaders. JMO

 

I want to buy GM again, when they have a consistent decade of used car quality on par with industry leaders. JMO

Ron, I could not agree more, I think GMs problem right now is not the quality but the consumers out there waiting to see how the new high quality built cars hold up down the road. They can build them perfect but it is not worth anything if there cars start turning into money pits a couple years into ownership. Unfortunately GM does not have that time

 

Well Pontiac is being closed as well as SAAB, Saturn, Hummer. And Mopar is going to stop producing the PT Cruiser, Dodge Durango, and the Magnum. Its really sad to see these former great automotive giants from the 60's and 70's who produced vehicles that couldnt be matched in performance or works of art really, any where in the world to be falling apart.