No-Hops work Very Well.

Observe this video..

http://www.boomspeed.com/mc71454/no_hop.wmv

First Stock, Second with No-hop bars.

I amn running a Dick Miller setup with No-Hop Bars and adjustable uppers, etc. The adjustable uppers are needed so I can adjust pinion angle and rear suspension preload.

 

nice! looks like with the no-hops you don't have as much wasted energy on launch due to the rear squatting and the front lifting.looks like the rear tires hooked better too.thanks for the demo!

 

The no-hops relocate the instant center (IC) and introduce "anti-squat". instead of the suspension squatting, the chassis separates pushing the tires down while pushing the body up. more efficient use of the energy.

 

What would happen if someone was to combine no-hops and SSM lift bars, or are they the same thing?

 

Originally posted by Pony Hunter:
What would happen if someone was to combine no-hops and SSM lift bars, or are they the same thing?

You would have my suspension.
I did just that.
Works great and I was able to set my pinion angle.
My car lifts about 1.5 inch on a launch.

 

Originally posted by Pony Hunter:
What would happen if someone was to combine no-hops and SSM lift bars, or are they the same thing?

A BIG No-No IMO. That creates a very short, very violent instant center. Use one or the other, but not both.

 

Which will work best with boxed arms, 10.5 inch tires and a 4000lb G-Body?

 

Originally posted by Pony Hunter:
Which will work best with boxed arms, 10.5 inch tires and a 4000lb G-Body?

Southside Machine lift bars..Jegs still makes them for the G body

 

bowtie455, also consider boxing your control arms, adding poly bushings, and Air-Lift bags (at least in the right spring). These items alone or combined with no-hop bars should work well, and you can keep your anti-sway bar. Someone will chime in with a shock recommendation too, I don't have an opinion one way or the other on that. Definitely don't get the old bolt-on style "frame breaker" ladder bars. Good luck.

 

thanks for the excellent help guys!i certainly plan on getting a full set of boxed control arms.i'm working on a good financial strategy for some extra $$$,so i intend to sink a good portion into a carefully considered street/strip combo pretty soon.man,now i'm even dreaming up drag racing scenarios in my sleep!the anticipation is killing me!

 

Basic rule of thumb:

For automatic cars with less gear and footbraking go with the lower point relocation (SSM's).

For a stick car or car leaving off a transbrake with some big power go with an upper point relocate like the no-hops. The lower relocation generally hits the tires harder, thus in faster cars with big power or those with the above stated characteristics it blows the tires off or pops the front sky high.

 

th-400,.456 gears,4000 stall,no transbrake,projected 750 h.p.on nitrous,which is best,upper or lower?

 

4 link

 

i already have a 4 link...from the GM factory. i'm thinking seriously about the rear suspension package from dick miller racing.

 

i've heard good things about the Dick Miller set ups though i don't know of anyone personally that is using it. Metco also makes a good set up with all 4 control arms, though a bit pricey, but probably no more than the DM set up. it's too bad they don't make the SSM bars for your car anymore, because they are about the best bang for your buck that there is for suspension upgrades.

 

i placed an online order with jegs a while back for the ssm's and they sent a notice telling me they had been discontinued for my car.same goes for summit.i tried calling ssm and no luck.i think they went through some kind of business reconstruction at that time.i sure wanted the darn things!

 

The SSM bars wouldn't be very hard to make, or have made by a basic fabrication shop if you had a set to duplicate.

 

I too have a traction problem and need more info. The way I understand it is that no hop bars mount to the upper control arms at the diff. and change the geometry there and the lift bars replace the lower control arms and change the geometry there.
I am on a budget..lol like most people..no hop bars are less money...which one do you think will give the most improvement?
I have a 427 and a p/glide with 4:11s..line lock and 3000 rpm stall..my car wieghs around 3900lbs. all opinions and suggestions most welcome...
thanks Steve B

 

I had bad wheel hop so tried the no-hops. I still had hop. Used the SSM bars and the hop stopped and never returned. Others have had excellent results with no-hops. I guess it depends on the car, the power, and the way the rest of the suspension is setup.

I believe Metco makes a lift bar of the same or similar design as the SSM lift bars. Probably aluminum and probably a lot more money.

 

Bowtie... your combo sounds similar to mine and I decided to relocate the top mount, but I think depending what rpm you lunch at, how the weight is distributed in your car, and your shocks... the lower relocation could work well too. Pat hit the nail on the head that it truely is trial and error. I like the upper relocate for that kind of power though because in my old 4 link car that generally worked better then messing with the lower. Another option is simply to get adj. uppers, box your lowers, and get some stiffer bushings and see how the car fares. I'm amazed at how well my buddy's 500+ hp 455 Old cutlass plants with just Hotchkis uppers, lowers, and braces.

The Dick Miller stuff doesn't plant really fast cars and can cause problems due to the pre-load from what I have been told by 3 owners of the system, but I have never used it.

BTW if you are looking for suspension stuff I have a set of Hotchkis adj. uppers for sale that are pretty much new if you were interested.

 

Originally posted by CaptCrunch:


1. I decided to relocate the top mount, but I think depending what rpm you lunch at, how the weight is distributed in your car, and your shocks...

2. I like the upper relocate for that kind of power though because in my old 4 link car that generally worked better then messing with the lower.

3. Another option is simply to get adj. uppers, box your lowers, and get some stiffer bushings and see how the car fares.

4. The Dick Miller stuff doesn't plant really fast cars and can cause problems due to the pre-load from what I have been told by 3 owners of the system, but I have never used it.

1 and 2. Relocating the Top Mount is exactly what No-Hop Bars do.

3. There is No reason to get adjustable uppers Unless you need to modify your Pinion Angle Due to No-Hop Bars And/Or to put Preload into the suspension. I don't recommend anyone playing with the Pinion Angle unless you are ready to do some serious and Very careful A-B-A testing. The debate is still out as to the advantages of modifying your pinion angle in a coil sprung car.

4. This is completely wrong.... You do not need to put any Pre-load into the suspension with the Dick Miller kit. You can if you want to, I have a Very slight amount because I still use the air bags and 12-way shocks to add the pre-load I need when I get to the track. The adequate amount of Pre-load for the track would be awkward on the street, so I choose to have 1/2 turn of preload in my upper right control arm. This system will plant the tires for just about any 60 ft time of course this assumes it is properly adjusted.

 

Originally posted by Pat Kelley:
I had bad wheel hop so tried the no-hops. I still had hop. Used the SSM bars and the hop stopped and never returned. Others have had excellent results with no-hops. I guess it depends on the car, the power, and the way the rest of the suspension is setup.

I believe Metco makes a lift bar of the same or similar design as the SSM lift bars. Probably aluminum and probably a lot more money.

I have seen this many times too Pat...same exact scenario.

Each time it had to do with a stock lower control arm with factory bushings..was this the case in your ride?

 

Originally posted by bowtie455:
i already have a 4 link...from the GM factory. i'm thinking seriously about the rear suspension package from dick miller racing.

IMO the Dick Miller setup is not required. Get a set of no hop bars or SSM bars and a good set of boxed lower control arms and poly bushings. If you go the SSM route you can set the pinion angle using their kit. If you go with no-hop bars you may want to invest in a nice pair of adjustable upper control arms. I use the Edelbrock no-hop bars. Edelbrock also makes a very nice set of adjustable uppers that can be adjusted without disconnecting the control arm. Metco is also another good choice. I run the Hotchkis upper/lower bars and IMO they're overpriced for what you get. The Hotchkis upper control arms are single action and must be disconnected to lengthen/shorten. Not a big deal but, it is a little aggrivating when you're first getting the pinion angle dialed in. Spend the money you save by not buying the Miller kit on a nice pair of double adjustable shocks. I run QA1 Stocker Stars. They are a good shock. Afco also makes some nice shocks.

As others have mentioned you want the rear tire to separate from the body. This can be accomplished with either SSM or no-hop bars. Then you need a QUALITY shock to control the amount of separation. Without good shock valving the car will separate too much in the rear. In extreme cases the rear will separate so much that it will top out the shock travel and unload the rear tires. It's also possible to unload the rear tires without topping out shock travel. If the rear end rises too much it will alter the weight bias and negatively affect weight transfer from front to rear. The rear spring rate/height plays a small role in this process as the torque is usually able to overcome the spring rate thereby making the shock the limiting factor.

To set up your rear suspension jack the rear of the car up and place jack stands underneath the frame in front of the rear tires. This will allow the suspension to hang freely at maximum extension (assuming the tires are off the ground ). Take a measurement on both sides from the tire to the wheel opening. Lower the car back to the ground and take the same measurement with the car on the ground. You'll probably end up with 3"-5" of extension. Without proper shock valving the car will fully extend the rear suspension on launch and unload the rear tires. Therefore your shock valving must set to allow some extension but not full extension. In most cases I believe you will find that 2"-3" is all that is required to plant the rear tires. After a couple hundred passes and detailed notes I've found that the shock valving is critical to getting the launch dialed in and consistent. The need for a video recorder and slow motion replay cannot be overstated when it comes to dialing in your suspension. Start off with a 50/50 valving on the rear shocks. See how the car hooks. If it's spinning then try setting the shocks looser a little at a time. If it's hooking on the initial pass then try tightening the rear shocks a little at a time. It takes some time and you need to ensure that your keeping good notes and limiting variables (burn out procedure, launch rpm, tire pressure, etc...).

Lastly, a rear sway bar or anti-roll bar are very helpful in distributing the torque between the two rear tires.

Good luck.

 

For what its worth, I took everyone's advice and put my suspension back at a stock ride height. Hotchkiss lowers and reinforced factory uppers with rubber bushings in the top. Simple KYB shocks. No wheel hop at all. Traction isn't so great with a street radial tire (and a front drop coil spring) but at least it doesn't hop. From having messed with these cars years ago, the very basic thing to start with is to get the lower control arm parallel to the chassis. As soon as you raise them up, you have to start changing parts to correct the geometry.

 

Just to Clarify, I agree with Ken and I do NOT have the entire Dick Miller Setup.

I have his No-Hop Bars and the adjustable uppers and lower control arms. That's it.

He gave me a nice package deal to also buy the lowers. I needed them since my factory lowers were not boxed and they desperately needed new bushings anyway. By the time I purchased and installed poly bushings, boxed the factory lowers, sanded, primed, and painted them it wasn't worth it since time is always my biggest foe.

The reason I went with the DM no-hops is because they matched with his adjustable uppers that did not need to be disconnected to adjust them and the no-hops have two mounting locations to change the severity of the hit on the tires. Since I bought my DM no-hops, Edelbrock and some others have come out with the same on-car adjustability the DM's have unlike the Hotchkiss uppers which you have to remove one end to make length adjustments.

As Ken said, I also use quality QA-1 Shocks to control the extension during launch and it has taken many passes and video to determine the proper settings. These shocks are well worth it.

When running in the high 11's and slower the KYB gas shock was all that was necessary for me in the rear suspension.

Hope this clarifies a little