I've never checked this and will in the future.
Thanks.

 

I'll be the first to admit that I have lots to learn, and I look forward to that. But one thing I have learned so far the MOST, is that with ANY aftermarket parts, regardless of their cost, you cannot take anything for granted nor assume that the part itself, nor even the hardware that comes with it, will fit correctly. EVERYTHING has to be measured and checked. And when it comes to bolts, that means checking the length, and in some cases, the shank diameters also. I also measure and check the thread engagement of all fasteners in any given threaded hole. Not only with my dial calipers, but I also thread the bolts in the holes in question, to make sure the bolts will not bottom-out in the threaded holes before clamping down completely on the part being secured.

I whole heartedly believe that anyone building one of these old classic cars with any aftermarket parts, are in error if they aren't using at least an inexpensive set of dial calipers on a regular basis. If you avoid that, you're just asking for trouble, and the aftermarket parts manufactures aren't going to look out for you.

 

Not only with my dial calipers, but I also thread the bolts in the holes in question, to make sure the bolts will not bottom-out in the threaded holes before clamping down completely on the part being secured.

I bought a ring gear and install kit. The bolts bottomed out at X torque. A year later, I found out all about it. Lucky though, no damage.
I wonder how many dizzys are being clamped down with 1" bolts and guys wondering why their timing moves.

 

This is a very good writeup, I went through the same exercise. What happened to me was that the outside mounting hole broke off on the end of my big block. Luckily I have a very good friend that can weld anything and he built it back up so I could drill a new mounting hole. In addition, I used a PowerMaster 9526 starter that has 3 mounting holes to spread the stress on the mounting pad.

 

The Powermaster mini-starter I bought came with proper bolts & shims.

 

Then you lucked out. That won't always happen

 

Except for one car, all my cars have the early, heavy, GM Delco style starters. They are all the hi-torque style which have been rebuilt by an old time, mom and pop style shop, and they work great.
When I built the 455 for the Cutlass, I did invest in an aftermarket starter. It's great, zero issues now after 12yrs.

 

Except for one car, all my cars have the early, heavy, GM Delco style starters. They are all the hi-torque style which have been rebuilt by an old time, mom and pop style shop, and they work great.
When I built the 455 for the Cutlass, I did invest in an aftermarket starter. It's great, zero issues now after 12yrs.
View attachment 781622


View attachment 781623

Please everyone pardon me if I've asked the following question before, but what are these braces??? I don't think my 70 ever came with those. Did the factory begin the inclusion of these braces in 1971 or later??? I guess I'm just wondering if they really do anything to stiffen up that area to reduce flex. They sure can't hurt...

EDIT: Sorry guys, I was thinking this was a pic of a Chevelle, and I completely overlooked the part of his post which pointed out that he was speaking of his Cutlass, until Rick alerted me to that fact.

 

Those braces on Tom's car never came on 64-72 A-bodies they came on 73-77 GM Colonnade cars.The A-body's next generation of mid-size cars
FWIW FWIW those cars chassis were covetted by all the circle track racers nationwide and it took very little to modify it into a street stocker on dirt or paved tracks.

Here is a write up on the suspension design and handling test's of the mid 70-s A-body. Something I never knew was that the 73-77's suspension design was headed by Herb Adams even though I knew of him I didn't know that he was that involved in production design. Good write up.

CC Tech: 1973-77 GM Colonnade Chassis Design - Corner Carving through the Brougham Era - Curbside Classic

When one discusses American cars of the 1970s, good handling is not typically something that pops into one’s thoughts. If anything, most American cars of the 1970s have a reputation […]

www.curbsideclassic.com

Also the road tests showed the 74 Cutlass vs. a 74 Cougar XR7(about the 4:50 mark for the Cutlass) on the youtube video. He was drifting that big Cutty back then when we still called it fish-tailing !!!

 

all 442's got those manifolds they are not w-30 specific.

 

That MAY be correct, but the stock Olds engines got the smaller manifolds. And as far as II know, those were ONLY used on 455 engines.
But, regardless, they are a much better manifold than the regular, smaller manifolds. PLUS, the right one is a SPECIFIC dual exhaust manifold. The right manifold for single exhaust had TWO outlets (one in and one out). Thus, true Olds right side manifolds for single exhaust are scarce.

 

Then you lucked out. That won't always happen

Agreed, I was just pointing out that the Powermaster brand supplies the proper bolts for their starters.

Mine didn't, I had to buy the correct ones.

 

Like Tom did, after I replaced starters (seems like every year) I finally had a mom and pop shop build a GM starter for me back in 1992 and it has worked fine for the past 31 years... not a bad return for my investment. If it goes out I might look at a mini for the future - this is a great heads up thread. Thanks!

 

Some of us don't have a choice and we have to use a mini-starter. If I could use an OE type GM starter, then I definitely would. Even when I'm drag racing, I don't care about the several pounds of extra weight that a conventional starter has. If I was that concerned about vehicle weight, then I would sell the Chevelle and buy an ugly AMC Gremlin, a Chevette, or even a stripped down Datsun 240Z with a 350 SBC to race.

But Chevelle owners like me who have to use a big aftermarket oil pan to accommodate a much larger crankshaft stroke than a 454 cid engine has, as well as big tube custom made headers, are forced to use a mini-starter. We can't use a full size starter. It has nothing to do with weight savings. There simply isn't enough room for it.

 

Avoiding mini-starter mounting woes :

the answer you get a PMGR starter.
I can't tell you how many problems I've seen with those mini starters that need a 2x4 block of aluminum to adapt an old aisen sourced 4 cylinder starter to a Chevy V8.

 

The Powermaster mini-starter I bought came with proper bolts & shims.

Then you lucked out. That won't always happen

Mine didn't, I had to buy the correct ones.

Indeed the powermaster i installed a few months back came with two allen head bolts.

 

You might try: 9/16 G8 bolts , lock washers , and a Tork wrench . Good luck

 

You need to use the knurled starter bolt. They are 3/8-16 and off the shelf are available in 3 different lengths.

 

My apologies, you are correct. The thread is 3/8 -16. The head would be 9-16

 

I don't think the bolts are the issue. Might need more elbow .

 

QUALITY, doesn't just happen. Someone haves too make it.

 

Some of us don't have a choice and we have to use a mini-starter. If I could use an OE type GM starter, then I definitely would. Even when I'm drag racing, I don't care about the several pounds of extra weight that a conventional starter has. If I was that concerned about vehicle weight, then I would sell the Chevelle and buy an ugly AMC Gremlin, a Chevette, or even a stripped down Datsun 240Z with a 350 SBC to race.

But Chevelle owners like me who have to use a big aftermarket oil pan to accommodate a much larger crankshaft stroke than a 454 cid engine has, as well as big tube custom made headers, are forced to use a mini-starter. We can't use a full size starter. It has nothing to do with weight savings. There simply isn't enough room for it.

Billy This is a pmgr starter that comes factory OE on a 96 & later Chevy Suburban w/ BBC. Its a starter that a lot of TCers with a BB and 400's & some small blocks with the larger flywheel use. I picked a rebuilt so you could see what the OE starter looks like but these are also copied and sold new. This starter is small and light enough to fit between the headers and bigger oil pans yet its strong enough to start a hi-compression BBC too.

More Information for ACDELCO 3361910A

Do a search on TC, you'll see a lot of TC BBers use this or a similar starter. This is a way better starter that a powermaster which I believe all use a block of aluminum to adapt a starter to a Chevy engine. Check it out you and other TC people may be surprised.

 

Billy This is a pmgr starter that comes factory OE on a 96 & later Chevy Suburban w/ BBC. Its a starter that a lot of TCers with a BB and 400's & some small blocks with the larger flywheel use. I picked a rebuilt so you could see what the OE starter looks like but these are also copied and sold new. This starter is small and light enough to fit between the headers and bigger oil pans yet its strong enough to start a hi-compression BBC too.

More Information for ACDELCO 3361910A

Do a search on TC, you'll see a lot of TC BBers use this or a similar starter. This is a way better starter that a powermaster which I believe all use a block of aluminum to adapt a starter to a Chevy engine. Check it out you and other TC people may be surprised.

That's the type I will be using.
But the proper bolts still apply to these as well.

 

Avoiding mini-starter mounting woes :

the answer you get a PMGR starter.
I can't tell you how many problems I've seen with those mini starters that need a 2x4 block of aluminum to adapt an old aisen sourced 4 cylinder starter to a Chevy V8.

You need to use the knurled starter bolt. They are 3/8-16 and off the shelf are available in 3 different lengths.

But, there are two different bolt diameters (along with the different lengths): 1. 3/8" (0.375") diameter with 3/8"-16 threads and the knurled shank typical of GM 10MT starters through the mid 90's and, 2. 10mm (0.394") diameter shaft with 3/8"-16 threads and the knurled shank typical of later GM PMGR and many (not all) aftermarket mini starters. The 10 mm knurled bolt will not fit the older 10MT starters but the 3/8" diameter bolt will fit very loosely in the later PMGR and many aftermarket mini starters. That 0.020" difference in bolt diameter is what causes most of the sloppy fit issues when using the 3/8" bolts to mount a PMGR starter. Knurled shanks are the same diameter for both bolts where they locate in the block.

 

X2 Out of four different sets of starter bolts I bought, I had four different diameter measurements, ( taken at the knurled shank sections of each bolt). And all bolts were listed for the same application.

 

If the bolts fit the block properly. The problem is in the starter head. The holes were probably drilled on Mon. or Fri. ,or by the new guy. You can try to find a starter head with the right hole size, or you can reem the holes in a starter head to 0.500, then sleeve w/ 1/2 X 3/8 tubing. Just make sure the tube is at least 1/16" shorter than the head.

 

If the bolts fit the block properly. The problem is in the starter head. The holes were probably drilled on Mon. or Fri. ,or by the new guy. You can try to find a starter head with the right hole size, or you can reem the holes in a starter head to 0.500, then sleeve w/ 1/2 X 3/8 tubing. Just make sure the tube is at least 1/16" shorter than the head.

Not necessarily so and highly unlikely IMO. The most common problem I have found is as I posted above. You can see that there are two distinct starter bolt types. Both have knurled shanks with 3/8"-16 threads, both have the same diameter knurl that locates the same in any block, both have a hex head for a 9/16" socket/open end/box wrench. The difference is in the shaft diameter. One is 3/8" (0.371" nominal) and the other is 10mm (0.391" nominal).

 

Check your threads carefully. The 3/8 is 16 t.p.i. The 10mm could be 1.5mm pitch (0.0590 that would be 0.0035" short per rev.) Do the 10mm bolts fit the block? Usually a 3/8-16 bolt will go in a 10mm hole. But a 10mm bolt doesn't fit a 3/8-16 hole . The pictures above clearly show the 10mm bolt is a much better fit for the hole.

 

Check your threads carefully. The 3/8 is 16 t.p.i. The 10mm could be 1.5mm pitch (0.0590 that would be 0.0035" short per rev.) Do the 10mm bolts fit the block? Usually a 3/8-16 bolt will go in a 10mm hole. But a 10mm bolt doesn't fit a 3/8-16 hole . The pictures above clearly show the 10mm bolt is a much better fit for the hole.

The threads on both the 3/8" and 10mm bolts are 3/8"-16 as I stated above. The 10mm bolt is a good fit in that starter because the starter is a GM PMGR type which is designed for the metric bolt which is necked down to 3/8" for a standard Chevrolet block.

 

Hey Billy, does your brain hurt yet from all this learning you've been doing on your project? I know mine hurts just trying to keep up with it!

 

Hahaha...it's been a huge learning curve Dave. ...and there's more to come!!

 

INCREDIBLE, GOOD CALL! The closer you look, the more you see. What a simple fix to a high torque problem.

 

The threads on both the 3/8" and 10mm bolts are 3/8"-16 as I stated above. The 10mm bolt is a good fit in that starter because the starter is a GM PMGR type which is designed for the metric bolt which is necked down to 3/8" for a standard Chevrolet block.

Dave for future reference what is the part number of that starter ? Many times people ask for what starter to use and that could help someone +

 

The numbers on the starter are GM12570823, 9000879, and U08AU01A. AC Delco equivalent PG260 p/n 96206. I purchased several new (not remans) ones quite a few years ago for $40.00 each shipped. Application was supposed to be for a 1998 Chevy 3500HD 7.4L (for 168 tooth/14" flywheel). Awesome starter fwiw.

 

I believe it's AC Delco PG260D
But you can use this as an alternate:

SCITOO Starter 6449N Fits Chevy Express 1500 2500 3500 (V8 5.0 5.7 8.1L) 2002 | eBay

Starter (engine): A starter (also self-starter, cranking motor, or starter motor) is a device used to rotate (crank) an internal-combustion engine so as to initiate the engine's operation under its own power.Starters can be electric, pneumatic, or hydraulic. In the case of very large engines...

www.ebay.com