Vince I must have missed a few post because the last I read you were on the fence.....:yes:
Looking forward to how this progresses....Would your new controller handle a 4L85 as well?

 

Bill, definitley off the fence now. No, this wont control transmissions. You would need the Dominator ECU for that, and its a little more pricey. Being that I have a manual trans, was a non-issue for me.

 

Good stuff Vince....There is something to be said for instant starts. Ask any Harley guy what it did for them......:thumbsup:
Every time I began to look into heading that direction myself in the future, the fuel tank issues cropped up and overwhelmed me.....Being able to talk with Doug has to be a huge plus as well....Again I look forward to following this.......:beers:

 

Looks great, Vince! I'll be following this thread as well.

 

Interesting to hear your progress on this. All started with that AFR purchase, eh? Hmmm... Maybe I should just remove my sensor, although I'm finally getting my SV1 tuned in pretty close now.

I'm assuming that specific intake isn't required, right? I'd bet you could mill 1/2" off the top if it became absolutely necessary for hood clearance. Are you using an Extreme K&N lid? 2.75" filter might be a little on the small side.

 

Interesting to hear your progress on this. All started with that AFR purchase, eh? Hmmm... Maybe I should just remove my sensor, although I'm finally getting my SV1 tuned in pretty close now.

I'm assuming that specific intake isn't required, right? I'd bet you could mill 1/2" off the top if it became absolutely necessary for hood clearance. Are you using an Extreme K&N lid? 2.75" filter might be a little on the small side.

Best thing you can do is get rid of that AFR meter as soon as possible...look where I ended up b/c of it . Milling the intake would be a little tough as there is a manifold air temp sensor in the intake, almost into the carb pad. It would have to be removed, hole welded-up, then milled. Not much carb pad to begin with anyway, so the shorter filter (if even needed) is MUCH easier. Being that the throttle body is pretty smooth, I doubt it will have much impact on total flow anyway on the street. Race day, can always remove the filter.

Looks good. Vince, how much taller is that intake than Eddy rpm airgap? In the picture the throttle body looks a bit shorter than a 4150, is it?

Alot taller! Its taller than the Victor Jr. The only saving grace here is yes - the TB is about an inch shorter than a carb. If it wasnt, I'd have major issues.

 

Saw it first hand. Looks nice. Took a good look around, had an ice cold brew, got the full in-person tutorial on all the functions and tuning capability. Knowing how Vince works, a lot of positives will come out of This conversion the EFI in terms of do's and don'ts.

 

Looks good. Vince, how much taller is that intake than Eddy rpm airgap? In the picture the throttle body looks a bit shorter than a 4150, is it?

 

I knew you'd bite! You were too close not to.

Come on Vince, a small cap is only $150 & a coil shouldn't be too much more. Everything else is new...buy all new stuff. Joe came over, you gave him a beer and he talked you into some used stuff...geez!

Why the Avenger over the HP?

What are your fuel delivery plans?

 

Too late! I bought a used distrib and coil for 50.00 shipped from a salvage yard. Reason being is that #1, I'm cheap. #2...I need the wiring pigtail from the distrib to the coil itself, and whatever mounting brackets, screws, etc come with the coil. I have no idea how to get those items w/o going to the dealer...which in itself is a PIA.

Dirty secret is, the Avenger an HP are the same . The Avenger comes with this nifty handheld that gets you going by asking basic questions, allows some basic adjustments, and engine running statistics. Seems to be some paranoia regarding the word LAPTOP evidently, so the Avenger eliminates that need. But ulimately, you can hook up to a laptop/desktop and "get in there".

Fuel system...probably gonna sump the tank and look into a surge tank. Still deciding on that one.

Still trying to decide where to mount the ECU. Would like it in the car, but dont think I have enough wiring. Need to do some more mearsuring.

 

He talked himself into the used distributor. Only thing I bartered into was a beer!

 

I'm thinking of doing the same EFI kit. A few questions Vince?
1. Can the fuel path on the rails be reversed so that the input and return are at the front of the engine?
2. Is there a port on the TB for the brake booster?
3. If you mount the ECU on the core support, is the wiring harness long enough to hide in the left fender or does it need to route forward from the TB?

 

Good questions Mike, and I'm dealing with each of those issues right now.

1 - Yes..in fact (hope Doug sees this and confirms), you can flip these around. There's a shradder valve on the front... I'd like to move it to the rear and mount the fuel sending unit there rather than the front, just dont think it looks good up there.

2 - NO!!!!! ARGGGGHHHH!!! I realized right after I installed the intake there is no power brake port!!!! I will have to drill and tap or press in a nipple. Wish I caught this before hand. Not a big deal...just need the shop vac handy. The TB does have a port in the front for a PCV or PB...you can see it in the pic.

3- Core support...if you run the wires straight to the MPI unit..it will make it. The problem is that if you want to run the wires along side of either fender to make it look nice...this is where I'm running into issues as the harness is just a little short to "square-up" nicely. Gonna look out for other mounting points. Think today I'll look into the glove box, or behind it.

 

That's why I've been waiting. The knowledge from people is more valuable than any sales brochures. Dirty secret is right! I hate when companies do that. The company that I used to work for played those little games with its customers. The customers couldn't trust our company after playing little games with its product offerings, and as a result, they lost their main customer and my company was forced to close its doors.

I can see trying to use the laptop with certain features blocked because of purchasing the less expensive Avenger. Now there is an aspect of trust with Holley, but it's still probably the best kit out there IMO.

So...you get more with the Avenger? Is the available I/O the same?

Now I have to look at the Avenger instead of the HP. Thanks for the heads up Vince!

Mark

 

I'll comment on this. Vince summed it up but here is the deal. I'm very well versed in the total EFI marketplace, having dealt with EFI for almost 2 decades. FAST came out with the EZ EFI, a product I've wanted to do for quite a while since I saw the need, but never had the resources to do so until we've released this Avenger product along with the HP and Dominator systems. The TYPICAL (not all but trust me most) "EZ EFI" or Avenger customer is very scared of EFI tuning, many are very scared of computers, but there are those that want to enjoy the benefits of EFI. For this customer the word "laptop" is a dirty word they run from. They want an "easy" to use system with NO laptop.

The Avenger and HP systems use the same ECU. The harnesses are the same, everything. The differentiating factor is the handheld tuner that comes with the Avenger. It replaces the need for a laptop with a very simple to use device anyone can be successful at using. However you are much more limited to what you can tune vs a laptop. This keeps most people out of trouble.

The HP systems are marketed as laptop tunable. This will completely turn off and eliminate a sale to the TYPICAL Avenger customer.

Hence the need for two "different" systems marketed to different targets.

If you marketed the Avenger product such that it can be laptop tuned, trust me, that will scare off many of those customers.

There are customers that find that to be a benefit. I'm not hiding that fact, but you have target markets you go after with product design and marketing.

The pricing is close, nothing is "trick or hidden there". The Avenger comes with the handheld increasing cost, also a fuel pump. The HP systems have no fuel pump and the MPFI HP systems have no injectors. These are for people that may have these components or want something different. The Avenger units are "complete".

So trust me, there is no hidden agenda. Just product targeted for specific markets.

The Avenger has LESS features (can't do nitrous, user programmable inputs/outputs, water meth injection, and more). The HP has more that are used via the laptop software.

 

Its not that Holley has a hidden agenda or anything with the "Avenger" line, there's just a market need. I bet there was some round table discussions at Holley regarding this whole laptop "problem". For some reason, that word must scare people off from getting in EFI. Yet, these same folks are on the internet doing things that are much more complicated. In the end its a good thing for us, b/c they developed this handheld that we get to play with for basic things rather than drag a laptop out to see some of this stuff :thumbsup:

I'll probably do a Youtube video of the handheld.

I mean really, adjusting the idle speed from the drivers seat, come on :hurray:

 

Vince,

A follow up to your answers with more questions:
1. Looks like a port is also missing for vaccum advance? I suppose if one is going with EFI, might as well do the ignition control too with the small HEI disty and separate coil.
2. I looked at the cable harness and connectors shown in the manual. Seems like fairly standard automotive connectors with removable pins. Can't see the construction of the ECU mass connectors. Think it's possible to rebuild the harness with longer wires?
3. Another harness routing alternative is to go forward to join with the alternator harness, span over to the left inner fender and then to the core support. Think the ECU harness is long enough for that route?

BTW, thanks for posting your work.

 

this is very cool, and i have been thining about doing some sort of "cheap" junkyard EFI hybrid set up for my SB for a while now..

so im guessing there is no crank sensor? just uses the distributor? is this distributor like the crab style 96+ vortec ones, or the 80's TPI?

cant wait to see your results

aaron

 

The Avenger can control timing via a small cap GM HEI. If not controlling timing you connect to the output on the CD box or if no CD box the negative side of the coil.

The HP software allows you to configure the ignition for a wide variety of options. You can run LSx COP, or other various systems with different crank and cam input options.

 

That issue is resolved. Will need to drop off that spun alum drop base. If it clears everything, there's more than enough metal in it to install the IAT sensor.

 

can you also use a tee fitting on that one port?

 

Got the ecu mounted, next to the batter actually, on the inner fender. Wire length was about perfect Biggest hassle here is going to be dealing with the aircleaner drop base. It hits the throttle bracket. Will have to fab something up to get the bracket lower than normal. The kit comes with a spacer thats about 3/4" high that lifts the air cleaner base up to clear. Man, between the real tall single plane intake and this spacer, you almost need a cowl hood to fit everything up as designed.

Hope to at least get her fired-up this weekend. I REALLY want to here this thing run...at least idle!

 

Wow...cool to see you took the plunge!

You're about to have some real fun! I have no doubt you're going to like it a lot!

JIM

 

not sure exactly what you're asking but you don't want to Tee the PB line and the PCV. tough to Tee the IAT off because you want it to be in the moving airstream entering the engine.

 

Doug F,

I live in Az, what do you think about the possibility of mounting C950 computer under the hood? I'm really having a tough time cutting a 2" hole in the firewall of my virginal Az car. It could go in the pocket in front of the left inner fender. That's a protected area, and I could seal up the box a little too.

 

Tom,
It isn't "designed" for underhood applications due to the unsealed connectors. It isn't potted inside either. That being said we had one underhood on a car that did power tours, etc, with no problems. There are components rated for max of 85c in there. After 85c it doesn't mean they don't work, just may go out of tolerance.

Personally Tom if you mount it how you say, it is probably fine. I'd get some non-conductive grease meant for the purpose and stick some on the connectors (although I've never done that). So I'd probably give it a shot, just point the connectors down and make sure no water gets there.

Don't completely seal it, etc, you want heat to escape as I'm sure you know.

 

Doug, thx for answering up on this. I think I'm going to try it.

 

Doug,

How would you upgrade the Avenger system to the HP version? Is it a software flash to unlock the features?

From the Holley website:

"•System can be upgraded in the future to a Holley “HP EFI System” if desired "

 

We'll, got the wiring done today, and the fuel system. The biggest PIA is hood clearance, I'm having problems actually. This intake is HIGH, and 69's have LOW hood clerance. I've cut and bent the throttle cable so its sits lower, but still needs more work. with a drop base air cleaner and 3" element, it slighlty rubs the hood. I dont think I will run a shorter filter b/c the lid and base are pretty tight to each other internally as is...no way will I make that tighter. I'm considering possible cutting a section of the hood bracing a but...but need to sleep on it. K&N offers a ~2.83" filter...maybe that's the way to go. Hope to hear this run tomorrow. Stay tuned.

 

If you haven't already solved it check out the pm I sent you a while back, those part numbers worked perfect on mine. :yes:

 

Not sure if the throttle bracket is in the way of the air filter, but on mine I was able to mount the bracket crossways on the rear bolts and free up some room on the side of the throttle body. I also drilled and tapped the throttle bracket to hold the air temp sensor.

JIM

 

Hey Jim, I have the Holley setup as well and was wondering what you did for the fuel connections. It looks like you replaced the included hose barbs with -6 AN connections. I'm assuming -6 male on the motor side but what did you use on the other? Do you still have a hard fuel line? I have two 3/8" lines (feed/return) and am trying to work out the plumbing.

It also looks like you replaced the crossover tubes? Any specific reason?

JIM

 

Jim, your not running any sort of drop vase aircleaner are you? Cowl hood?

 

Vince, take note, he's running with twin breathers and no PCV. Doing so, you could just leave the IAT where it is, and use the front port for the PB.