[MY FYN 79]

I'm looking at SBC dual plane intakes and noticed several "new" ones out lately that I've never seen before.

All the dual plane air gap style intakes I'm considering are-

Edelbrock RPM air gap
Dart SHP
Trickflow streetburner
Weiand speed warrior
Summit Stage 3

Now, the Edelbrock, Dart, and Trick flow appear identical other than a slightly different look where the plenum divider is milled. The Weiand and Summit appear to be the same exact intakes.

Trickflow doesnt claim anything special about their intake, but Dart claims theres to be the latest and greatest. I'm not a huge Dart fan, but I always thought they took a lot of pride in their products and would be surprised if they just did a re-badge.. well, kinda surprised. I talked to Dart years ago and they claimed that Edelbrock stole the air gap idea from them before they could release the Kool can.

Much thanks if any one out there has some input!

 

[Tom Mobley]

All things considered I'll take an RPM Air Gap.

 

[73nova]

I liked the Summit stage 3 for the price. My cousin has the rpm performer not the air gap but its still a nice intake but air gap is a better one over all. I sent you a pm as I am building a big block.

 

[Schurkey]

First Guess: Weiand (and the Summit equivalent) are cast in China. MAYBE they're machined here.

 

[novaderrik]

i've always had better luck with Edelbrock intakes than Weiand intakes- they just fit better and all the accessory brackets bolt up like stock.
but i don't think there is any real functional difference between any of the comparable designs, unless you think your calibrated butt dyno can feel a 5hp or 5lb ft power swing..

 

[540Hotrod]

Don't have all the data for you because I haven't back to backed all of them..but I did test a Dart Air Gap style dual plane last year on a pump gas 400" Dart SHP motor with out of the box 200cc Dart as cast heads. It made 540 HP@ 6100 rpm and 512 lb ft.@5100 rpm It made 481 lb ft at 3000 rpm.

You didn't ask about single planes...but I then tested it with a Weiand Team G single plane. The single plane made 555HP @6300 and 520 lb ft at 5100 rpm. At 3000RPM the single plane made 462 lb ft.

From 3000 to 6300 the dual plane averaged 431 HP and 487 lb ft. The single plane averaged 428 HP and 480 lb ft. The crossover point was at 4800 RPM for when the single plane started beating the dual plane. At 6300 RPM the single plane was up 20 HP and was still hanging on.

These were all out of the box and untouched with 1" spacers. Didn't have any issues with fit at all.

JIM

 

[DUTCH MAX HEADWORK]

My vote goes to the RPM Air Gap.

I like the Victor Jr. on a small block but you loose a bit of bottom end torque and driveability on the streets compared to the RPM Air Gap which gives a little up on the top end.

For a street car where driveability counts, the |RPM Air Gap wins hands down. :hurray:

Just my opinion....:yes:

 

[Mikeys69]

Don't have all the data for you because I haven't back to backed all of them..but I did test a Dart Air Gap style dual plane last year on a pump gas 400" Dart SHP motor with out of the box 200cc Dart as cast heads. It made 540 HP@ 6100 rpm and 512 lb ft.@5100 rpm It made 481 lb ft at 3000 rpm.

You didn't ask about single planes...but I then tested it with a Weiand Team G single plane. The single plane made 555HP @6300 and 520 lb ft at 5100 rpm. At 3000RPM the single plane made 462 lb ft.

From 3000 to 6300 the dual plane averaged 431 HP and 487 lb ft. The single plane averaged 428 HP and 480 lb ft. The crossover point was at 4800 RPM for when the single plane started beating the dual plane. At 6300 RPM the single plane was up 20 HP and was still hanging on.

These were all out of the box and untouched with 1" spacers. Didn't have any issues with fit at all.

JIM

540Hotrod: That's good, tried and true information right there.
Thanks for sharing :thumbsup:

 

[john@BMP]

Guys, what are we doing?

The OP said NOTHING about his build other than which intake?

Other than people pointing to their favorite brand, what good information is really here?

We can do better than this.

Geeze, it's threads like this that drive me nuts. How the heck can anyone pick an intake without knowing about the rest of the build?

The OP says they all look the same, where? On the pages of a magazine?

Someone says on a specific combination an Air Gap is 20 HP up, which may or may not have anything to do with what the OP is doing and then Mike says that's good info.

No Mike, it is not good info.

All that tells us is that he picked the wrong intake in the first place. It says with that particular accumulation of parts, the Air Gap made XXXX HP ad the Dart made YYYY HP. Unless the OP is running the same combination of parts, wtf did we just learn? NOTHING!

Geeze, this is what drives me nuts about the internet. Threads like this.

My god people, where is all the good info?

What have we considered about the OP's package that we are confident enough to make a recommendation? Is there information he previously posted that I don't have?

This is a "pick your favorite part" thread.. He could have just done a vote since nothing else is considered.

Rant off. I'm tired, sick, and cantankerous...

 

[novaderrik]

Guys, what are we doing?

The OP said NOTHING about his build other than which intake?

Other than people pointing to their favorite brand, what good information is really here?

We can do better than this.

Geeze, it's threads like this that drive me nuts. How the heck can anyone pick an intake without knowing about the rest of the build?

The OP says they all look the same, where? On the pages of a magazine?

Someone says on a specific combination an Air Gap is 20 HP up, which may or may not have anything to do with what the OP is doing and then Mike says that's good info.

No Mike, it is not good info.

All that tells us is that he picked the wrong intake in the first place. It says with that particular accumulation of parts, the Air Gap made XXXX HP ad the Dart made YYYY HP. Unless the OP is running the same combination of parts, wtf did we just learn? NOTHING!

Geeze, this is what drives me nuts about the internet. Threads like this.

My god people, where is all the good info?

What have we considered about the OP's package that we are confident enough to make a recommendation? Is there information he previously posted that I don't have?

This is a "pick your favorite part" thread.. He could have just done a vote since nothing else is considered.

Rant off. I'm tired, sick, and cantankerous...

you must be new- welcome to the internet..
you don't think my first post was helpful in any way? someone asked a general question, and i offered an answer based on personal experience- which is that Edelbrock intakes tend to be easier to bolt everything up to than Weiand intakes and that you probably won't notice a real difference between any of them outside of a dyno cell.

 

[MY FYN 79]

I think a little more reading could have avoided a lot of cantankerism.

As I posted originally, and as the title leads, this is not another thread asking which intake is best for my engine. I'm asking if any one has actual information on how these dual plane intakes compare... and maybe even if they are actually produced by the name casted onto them.

The OP says they all look the same, where? On the pages of a magazine?

Yes. Exactly. Well sorta, just pictures of them for sale on the internet. Why do I bring that up? Why do I ask here? Because I've seen or read NO OTHER INFO on the Dart SHP or Trickflow Streetburner intakes any where!

Also like I said, the Ede, Dart, and Trickflow look to share the same external casting. The Weiand and Summit also look the same externally.. but different than the other 3.

I hope this didnt just kill this thread, because I'm really curious about info on these. Maybe they are all identical, but even if so, I dont feel getting to the bottom of it is a waste of time.

 

[540Hotrod]

Jeez John....Hi Hope you're having a better evening now?

Since there was no info given on the combo...my post DID give some brief specific info on what a couple of intakes did for THAT combo. I didn't post the whole dyno sheet or the link to the series of dyno testing we did in the magazine.

I'm assuming that it's not for his 406/EFI motor..so who knows?

The info was also about a Weiand Team G single plane and a Dart dual plane. Not a Dart single plane. I said I never tested all of them back to back...so I gave some general info on what the trends were and how the single plane held on if you wanted to skew your shift points a little higher. if you never wanted to go over 6000 RPM most folks could see the trend..that's why I posted 3000 rpm numbers and averages.

Seemed helpful to keep conversation going to me? Figured OP would come back in and give more info when he had a chance.

So to help everyone..why don't you post up some combos and dyno testing/track results that BMP has accumulated over the years? You're bound to have something constructive to throw in here right? Seriously...I KNOW you do. Heck you guys have some good products...I've been running a World block for 10-11 years now in my car and some of the heads on a 427 before that. BMP has an opportunity to really grow if folks heard about what you're doing.

BTW..enjoyed chatting with you at PRI!

JIM

 

[Mikeys69]

540Hotrod, had some real good information in it. It may not have been to the OP's question completely, but it was good real world information. John...

 

[john@BMP]

you must be new- welcome to the internet..
you don't think my first post was helpful in any way? someone asked a general question, and i offered an answer based on personal experience- which is that Edelbrock intakes tend to be easier to bolt everything up to than Weiand intakes and that you probably won't notice a real difference between any of them outside of a dyno cell.

No, I think your post spoke to the nature of your QC experience with some of the mentioned brands, which, is about the best answer that can be given, with the given information.

 

[john@BMP]

I think a little more reading could have avoided a lot of cantankerism.

As I posted originally, and as the title leads, this is not another thread asking which intake is best for my engine. I'm asking if any one has actual information on how these dual plane intakes compare... and maybe even if they are actually produced by the name casted onto them.

What is the basis of the comparison? You ask how these intakes "COMPARE" but how? If we are to say one is "better" or "worse" on what criteria are we basing that conclusion? I don't see that in your question.

Yes. Exactly. Well sorta, just pictures of them for sale on the internet. Why do I bring that up? Why do I ask here? Because I've seen or read NO OTHER INFO on the Dart SHP or Trickflow Streetburner intakes any where!

Also like I said, the Ede, Dart, and Trickflow look to share the same external casting. The Weiand and Summit also look the same externally.. but different than the other 3.

I hope this didnt just kill this thread, because I'm really curious about info on these. Maybe they are all identical, but even if so, I dont feel getting to the bottom of it is a waste of time.

You can't tell anything from pictures i a book.. Just can't.

As far as killing the thread, I say quite the opposite. I think this can actually lead to a substantive discussion rather than a popularity contest. Quite the opposite.

 

[john@BMP]

Jeez John....Hi Hope you're having a better evening now?

Since there was no info given on the combo...my post DID give some brief specific info on what a couple of intakes did for THAT combo. I didn't post the whole dyno sheet or the link to the series of dyno testing we did in the magazine.

I'm assuming that it's not for his 406/EFI motor..so who knows?

The info was also about a Weiand Team G single plane and a Dart dual plane. Not a Dart single plane. I said I never tested all of them back to back...so I gave some general info on what the trends were and how the single plane held on if you wanted to skew your shift points a little higher. if you never wanted to go over 6000 RPM most folks could see the trend..that's why I posted 3000 rpm numbers and averages.

Seemed helpful to keep conversation going to me? Figured OP would come back in and give more info when he had a chance.

So to help everyone..why don't you post up some combos and dyno testing/track results that BMP has accumulated over the years? You're bound to have something constructive to throw in here right? Seriously...I KNOW you do. Heck you guys have some good products...I've been running a World block for 10-11 years now in my car and some of the heads on a 427 before that. BMP has an opportunity to really grow if folks heard about what you're doing.

BTW..enjoyed chatting with you at PRI!

JIM

I understand Jim. And I'm not faulting you. I am faulting the people who draw conclusions of what is "better" and what isn't based on those conclusions and tests. You put something up to use as a guideline and it was taken to a ridiculous extreme. Please for a minute do not think I am knocking what you did, people just need to keep it in perspective.

You know as well as I do that with one combination of parts you will get XXX HP. If you change out that combination you'll get YYY HP. IN MY OPINION that only proves that combination 1 liked part 1 better than part 2.

Change that combination and part 2 would fare better than part 1 in a swap. I personally am not a big fan of side by side testing because the combination is typically slanted in one direction or another. I'm not saying it's INTENTIONALLY slanted, but a cam change here some more timing there, and the results can change.

I believe that to judge a product's superiority simply by a side by side test, and draw the conclusion that it will ALWAYS be superior because of one test, is a fools game. And that is exactly what happened in the post after yours.

And to the OP who said I hope this doesn't kill the thread...if as a community we allow this kind of thing to happen, where a side by side test is extended to the conclusion that because product "A" made more power than "B" in a specific test, it is therefore superior in all cases, which is exactly what happened here, we have failed and the thread deserves to die.

Jim, wrong John. I had previous personal obligations and was unable to be at PRI. However, I do look forward to meeting you at the next one or some time in the future. Please do not take my post as a knock on your test. I am simply trying to say as a consumer to understand what the meaning is of the result. The following post to yours "WELL THERE YOU HAVE IT" is wrong IMO, and I would go as far as saying irresponsible.

The comments on "drive ability". The OP didn't say a word about drive ability nor can that be determined without knowledge of the rest of the build.

Thanks for the kind words about if people saw what we were doing, and a lot of that comes into play in this thread. The fact that someone could latch on to a magazine, tv show, internet test and draw a conclusion of a one size fits all "best" keeps us from being recognized for the good products we have. This kind of insanity is killing us.

Anyway, I digress. I hope we can really turn this thread into something educational and informative rather than just pick the prom queen. And I hope this kind of thinking can go through out our conversations.

 

[john@BMP]

540Hotrod, had some real good information in it. It may not have been to the OP's question completely, but it was good real world information. John...

OK Mikey, I have a question. What did it prove? Apparently you seem to believe that something could be learned from that, what is it exactly? These are fun exercises, I agree, and I like to read them too, but to extend a conclusion from it...really?

This is the root of my disdain of the internet. You called it what? "tried and true" so I ask, how does this relate to the OP's question?

This is important stuff guys, times are hard and people are going to spend money. Not knowing the OP's goals, the OP's criteria, the OP's combination how can you in good faith tell him to go spend money on something based on this example, or for that matter, any example. The only REAL way to know is to define the criteria and swap the parts on his specific combination and measure against it.

I have said this before Mikey, and I will stand by it.....

If you have a combination of parts put together and you swap one out and pick up power, your combination wasn't well thought out in the first place.

I'm not saying that's a 100% hard and fast rule, perhaps some things weren't available at the time, or we can introduce things like CNC'd heads vs. as cast....but for the most part, if you're picking up 25 or more HP by swapping one part, you didn't do it right in the first place. If you get into the 50 HP range, put down the tools.

I hope by my rantings we can strive for more thought out and intelligent conversation going forward.

 

[gulfcoastspeedncustom]

I can speak for a only a couple of the brands, Edlebrock is US made - at least machined. Castings MAY be dome overseas, but I am pretty sure on they are 100% US. As for others I am not sure. The castings are definately different, but all are adaptations of the edelbrock intakes. Summit intakes are either from Professional products or Procomp. These would all be tha same casting and all 100% chicom. Professional has very good products which they did a good deal of R&D to create "original" versions of the edelbrock models. THey are nicely priced as well. Procomp is notorious for pure copies of other companies products. The owner is in Australia and doesnt seem to care about US copyright laws. He went direct to the plant in china that has the molds for professional products intakes and offered to buy intakes from the chinese using Profesionals molds. So Summit uses either of these brands intakes as a private label. Or they themsleves are oredering direct from china where the knock-offs are plentiful. As for the other brands I am not sure. I do know there are very few foundaries left in the US due to strict EPA regs.

 

[MrBill66Malibu]

OK Mikey, I have a question. What did it prove? Apparently you seem to believe that something could be learned from that, what is it exactly? These are fun exercises, I agree, and I like to read them too, but to extend a conclusion from it...really?

This is the root of my disdain of the internet. You called it what? "tried and true" so I ask, how does this relate to the OP's question?

This is important stuff guys, times are hard and people are going to spend money. Not knowing the OP's goals, the OP's criteria, the OP's combination how can you in good faith tell him to go spend money on something based on this example, or for that matter, any example. The only REAL way to know is to define the criteria and swap the parts on his specific combination and measure against it.

I have said this before Mikey, and I will stand by it.....

If you have a combination of parts put together and you swap one out and pick up power, your combination wasn't well thought out in the first place.

I'm not saying that's a 100% hard and fast rule, perhaps some things weren't available at the time, or we can introduce things like CNC'd heads vs. as cast....but for the most part, if you're picking up 25 or more HP by swapping one part, you didn't do it right in the first place. If you get into the 50 HP range, put down the tools.

I hope by my rantings we can strive for more thought out and intelligent conversation going forward.

John,

If you want to pick apart posts, your line about "If you get into the 50 HP range, put down the tools." is way out of line!!! We all make mistakes and learning from them is what life is all about!! In my opinion you are not making any friends here with your past comments. Take a chill pill and put you brain into gear before opening your mouth or in this case typing your thoughts.
Not everyone is going to hit on the perfect combination the first time out and maybe they have budget constraints and used an less then ideal part just because they had it left over or was given to them. Not all of us have unlimited disposable income to put the perfect combination together the first time!

 

[john@BMP]

John,

If you want to pick apart posts, your line about "If you get into the 50 HP range, put down the tools." is way out of line!!! We all make mistakes and learning from them is what life is all about!! In my opinion you are not making any friends here with your past comments. Take a chill pill and put you brain into gear before opening your mouth or in this case typing your thoughts.
Not everyone is going to hit on the perfect combination the first time out and maybe they have budget constraints and used an less then ideal part just because they had it left over or was given to them. Not all of us have unlimited disposable income to put the perfect combination together the first time!

As odd as you may find it. I agree with you completely.

We all do make mistakes, I've made plenty myself and it is an expensive learning curve.

My point is, I have made plenty of mistakes on my own, let's not help people make mistakes. You're 100% right. Not everyone can hit on the perfect combination the first time. Completely right. HOWEVER, we as a forum community should be interested in giving out information that HELPS people meet their goals. In too many cases, as I have seen in this thread, it has become more of a beauty contest than a technical discussion. If someone is going to come up with a combination that doesn't work well, it shouldn't be because someone on a forum told him to use A, B, C parts based on nothing but a magazine test, personal results, or because they are shiny. A better discussion would be to understand their goals, budget, and how stuff works and make recommendations independent of brand. If all we do is spew manufacturer's part numbers back and pick a favorite, have we really helped?

IMO, drawing a conclusion from a test and calling it a definitive conclusion, is a mistake. And unless the OP had the same combination, it is a mistake. We can not say for sure which intake is best for the OP because the criteria hasn't been defined, nor has the combination.

My intent is to help people prevent mistakes, that's why they come here in the first place, right? To get information so they don't have to go through the pain you, and I, have been through.

If pointing out what constitutes good and bad information with the desire for the OP to get what he needs, makes me a bad guy, then I'm guilty.

Maybe a second look at what I'm saying, rather than my presentation warrants some consideration and you'll see my heart is in the right place for the OP.

This should be a technical discussion, not a vote for prom queen.