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Remove vin tag for paint?

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#41 ·
RichG said:
I love the double standard. The one set of folks saying go ahead rip the tags off no problem but then a car comes up on e-bay and everyone zero's in on the tag rivets and "won't touch it with a ten foot pole" "now it's just a clone" etc. To me, in my personal opinion, if you never remove them, there is never a question. Period.
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Myself, I think there is a big difference between removing the tag and putting it back like it's supposed to be so nobody can tell it has ever been removed or messed with and the ones that have been discussed here that are obvious.

Like I said I would just put it back like it was and not mention it to ANYBODY.

Having said that I won't say "BTDT" :noway:
 
#43 ·
This is just my opinion that is free, so take it as that.

I personally will never buy a car that "looks" like the VIN or trim tag has been altered. Much less one of any high dollar value.

I would not want to have to deal and convince future buyers of originality.
 
#44 ·
people use the term 'altered vin tag', which isn't the case, the tag has been removed and replaced. It may no longer have the original rivets, which may be an issue, but the vin tag itself has not be altered. This term would lead one to believe that the information on the vin tag had been changed, which isn't the case. The corresponding vin number can be found on other parts of the car to support a vin tag that has been taken off and put back on for what ever reason.

Also, those that re-body or swap vin numbers are more likely to cut the vin tag and the surrounding metal, in order to keep the original rivets in tact, and weld it back in on the other car, unless they are just lazy. Or, they have used the correct type of rivet, hence making it almost undetectable.

Right, wrong, or in different, it happens everyday, but saying that the vin tag has been altered is deceiving in and of itself... just my opinion, feel free to disagree...
 
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#46 ·
b&b's69 said:
once those rivets are removed the tag becomes altered , if you alter the tag with out authorization it becomes tampered with .
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No doubt you are a lawyer aren't you?
 
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#47 ·
[/QUOTE]
dyno jonn said:
No doubt you are a lawyer aren't you?
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You don't need a lawyer, just understand English.

(a)A person who—
(1)knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters an identification number for a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part; or
(2)with intent to further the theft of a motor vehicle, knowingly removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act,
shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
(b)
(1)Subsection (a) (THE PART IN RED) of this section does not apply to a removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person knows that the vehicle or part involved is stolen).
(2)The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection are—
(A)a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle demolisher who complies with applicable State law with respect to such vehicle or part;
(B)a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair;
(C)a person who restores or replaces an identification number for such vehicle or part in accordance with applicable State law; and
(D)a person who removes, obliterates, tampers with, or alters a decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act, if that person is the owner of the motor vehicle, or is authorized to remove, obliterate, tamper with or alter the decal or device by—
(i)the owner or his authorized agent;
(ii)applicable State or local law; or
(iii)regulations promulgated by the Attorney General to implement the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act.
(c)As used in this section, the term—
(1)“identification number” means a number or symbol that is inscribed or affixed for purposes of identification under chapter 301 and part C of subtitle VI of title 49;
(2)“motor vehicle” has the meaning given that term in section 32101 of title 49;
(3)“motor vehicle demolisher” means a person, including any motor vehicle dismantler or motor vehicle recycler, who is engaged in the business of reducing motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts to metallic scrap that is unsuitable for use as either a motor vehicle or a motor vehicle part;
(4)“motor vehicle scrap processor” means a person—
(A)who is engaged in the business of purchasing motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts for reduction to metallic scrap for recycling;
(B)who, from a fixed location, uses machinery to process metallic scrap into prepared grades; and
(C)whose principal product is metallic scrap for recycling;
but such term does not include any activity of any such person relating to the recycling of a motor vehicle or a motor vehicle part as a used motor vehicle or a used motor vehicle part.
(d)For purposes of subsection (a) of this section, the term “tampers with” includes covering a program decal or device affixed to a motor vehicle pursuant to the Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act for the purpose of obstructing its visibility.
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AGAIN, NOT ILLEGAL
 
#48 ·
US Justice Dept Criminal Resource Manual
Section 511(a) of Title 18 makes it a felony knowingly to remove, obliterate, tamper with, or alter an identification number for a road motor vehicle or a road motor vehicle part.
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US Justice Dept Criminal Resource Manual Proving-violations-18-usc-511
The essence of the offense is to show a removal, obliteration, tampering with, or alteration by the defendant. Eyewitness testimony is the best evidence to prove that the defendant removed or falsified the number. Proof of a removal of a number should be easily accomplished by persons familiar with what numbers should be present on a motor vehicle or part.
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Most of the states that are parties to the interstate compact, which created the Vehicle Equipment Safety Commission (VESC), have established under their respective state laws, procedures for the restoration and replacement of missing identification numbers. See Regulation VESC-18, Standardized Replacement Vehicle Identification Number System.
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Regulation VESC-18, Standardized Replacement Vehicle Identification Number System
4.0 POLICY
4.1. A replacement Vehicle Identification Numbering System shall be administered by the state agency responsible for registering and titling vehicles, hereafter referred to as the "Registration Agency". The operational functions of the Replacement Vehicle Identification Numbering may be carried out by Registration Agency and/or a statewide law enforcement agency referred to as "Enforcement Agency."​
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If the VIN comes off for any reason, only the state can legally replace it.
 
#49 · (Edited)
Alan F said:
US Justice Dept Criminal Resource Manual
Section 511(a) of Title 18 makes it a felony knowingly to remove, obliterate, tamper with, or alter an identification number for a road motor vehicle or a road motor vehicle part.

US Justice Dept Criminal Resource Manual Proving-violations-18-usc-511




Regulation VESC-18, Standardized Replacement Vehicle Identification Number System


If the VIN comes off for any reason, only the state can legally replace it.
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Section 511(a) of Title 18 makes it a felony knowingly to remove, obliterate, tamper with, or alter an identification number for a road motor vehicle or a road motor vehicle part. Section 511(b) of Title 18 creates exceptions for certain persons who engage in lawful conduct that may result in removal or alteration of an identification number. The legislative history is abundantly clear that subsection (b) is not intended to create a loophole for the operators of "chop shops." See H.R.Rep. No. 1087 on H.R. 6257, 98th Congress, 2d Sess. 23-25 (1984).
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Which is the portion I quoted. You didnt post the whole paragraph.

Not illegal.


4.0 POLICY
4.1. A replacement Vehicle Identification Numbering System shall be administered by the state agency responsible for registering and titling vehicles, hereafter referred to as the "Registration Agency". The operational functions of the Replacement Vehicle Identification Numbering may be carried out by Registration Agency and/or a statewide law enforcement agency referred to as "Enforcement Agency."
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Hes not replacing the VIN. He removing the original and putting it back on which is what this paragraph is referring to, a replacement.

This is the section your post is referring to. Section b
(b)
(1)Subsection (a) of this section does not apply to a removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration by a person specified in paragraph (2) of this subsection (unless such person knows that the vehicle or part involved is stolen).
(2)The persons referred to in paragraph (1) of this subsection are—
(A)a motor vehicle scrap processor or a motor vehicle demolisher who complies with applicable State law with respect to such vehicle or part;
(B)a person who repairs such vehicle or part, if the removal, obliteration, tampering, or alteration is reasonably necessary for the repair;
Click to expand...
 
#55 ·
55pat said:
I really stirred the pot with this post!
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This same thread has been answered here and other places on the net for years, its nothing new.

If you follow the wording of the subsections it makes perfect sense.
Someone in the gov had enough brains to add the portion in there for car restorers.

Besides, its YOUR VIN tag, you can do with it what you want.

Me personally, I would have to see the frame VIN and the VIN on the firewall, and they should match.
 
#57 ·
Before my car was painted I removed mine very carefully, I blasted it,epoxy primed it and reinstalled it using the original rivets with the shafts from new rivets.

You can't tell that it's been off. It's my car and I'll do what I like with it :D
 
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