Low buck primer surfacers, what is out there?

drptop70ss · Jun 7, 2003

I have a car I am going to repaint that doesnt need major work, just some spot rust repairs in a few spots. The car has only one layer of paint on it and I dont want to take to bare metal and find anything scary

I am not keeping this car, just want to give it a decent paint job. I figure I would fix the spots, wetsand the whole car with 220, and then spray the whole car with a primer surfacer so I can block it completely before painting. I normally use PPG K200 which I love but this is a low buck driver. Is there anything in the PPG line that is similar but cheaper? I am sure most cars are painted this way, that is fix the bad spots and then shoot the car without going to metal. I just want to make sure I have good adhesion to the existing paint. Any suggestions?

sevt_chevelle · Jun 7, 2003

Dave I dont know what k200 costs but PPG does offer a VALUE base product line called OMNI. The products are cheaper and for much reason. The base coats take 3 times as much to cover and the clears are a nice shade of yellow

I cant think of the number but OMNI makes a primer that is very similar to K36 whcih is a body shop standard. I have not sprayed this primer as I refuse to use OMNI, but an used car dealer down the road swears by the stuff, and the cars do look pretty good.

If it was me and I was just spraying a paint job to sell i would da with 400 and then prime. Wet snading something you dont plan on keeping is too much work for me.

Just thought of this one how about the DZ Kondar primer? Once again no idea on cost...Eric

drptop70ss · Jun 7, 2003

Eric,
If the OMNI is junk I wont use it, I dont like to cut corners just was interested in if there were good products at a lower cost. If I were to just DA the car with 400, would you then use a non sanding primer or a primer surfacer?

sevt_chevelle · Jun 7, 2003

Dave,
the OMNI line of PAINT and clear in my mind is junk. The basecoat is very transparent and watered down. If you sprayed OMNI base like you spray DBC you would end up with the omni on the floor.

The primer number I was thinking of is MP182 also they have a high build surfacer MP282. Like I said before, dealer down the road uses that and really likes the stuff. Not saying all OMNI products are junk just the basecoats, clears, single stage urethane and enamels.

If the car was mine and all I was looking for was a car to tool around in and have OK TO DECENT paint job I would da with 400 then seal(non sanding) with DPLF. Am not sure what you want out of the car, what I see is something that you want to sell but cant due to a bad paint job correct?

In all reality you wont be gaining any thing much by priming then blocking then painting -if you would just seal then paint. The reason I choose DPLF as a sealer is because expoy does a ok to good job at holding off rust. Plus its much more resistant to moisture then a primer surfacer would be. What Ive done in the past on things like this is mix the expoy as regular primer, apply one coat then mix it as a sealer then apply one coat then paint.

hilks · Jun 7, 2003

Hello:

I just finished spraying and blocking a 72 with the OMNI MP182. I must say it seems to do just as good of a job as the PPG I used on the last car. Sprays nice, sands nice, and covers well. I think I paid about 95 bucks for a gallon of the MP182 plus the catalyst.

Brian

boomhauer · Jun 7, 2003

There are a lot of cheaper productes that give great results. I have used U-tech(made by Azko Nobel/sikkens) primers,basecoats and clears with great results. Also have used 5-star 2k prime thats pretty good. Duponts Nason line of color and clear is good too.

drptop70ss · Jun 7, 2003

Actually this car had a decent metallic red paint job, but the car also had a vinyl top installed that I dont want so I am tearing that off, also the hood was replaced and isnt painted. So I want to paint the car for me and use it a couple years, I just know I wont be keeping it forever. I will be using a solid red with white stripes so will use PPG polyurethane paint, so I am not looking to use fleet farm enamel

. I want to do it right, but not take the car to metal fully since it only has one layer of paint now. The last car I didnt take to metal had an enamel paint job, I scuffed it and reshot it without a primer layer and the new paint ended up chipping easily..I dont want that again. Does using the primer help with the adhesion? How do you mix the DPLF as a primer and then as a sealer? Do you leave out the catylst for the sealer coat?

sevt_chevelle · Jun 7, 2003

Dave,
since you do plan on keeping the car for a year or two and seem to want something more then a ok paint job, this is what I would do then. I know I keep changing my ideas

Still da with 400 then apply one coat of etch primer PPG dx1791. You can apply this over existing paint and filler and DOES the ultimate job in fighting rust. The DX1791 mixed 1:1 with 1792. All you will need is just a quart as you will get 2 qt sprayable, more then enough to do a car.
Allow 30-45 mins flash time of DX1791 then topcoat with your primer surfacer, be it MP182 or K200 or K36 whatever. Apply three to four coats, depending how many the primer calls for. K200 and K36 can go to 4, I dont know about the MP182 or 282.

After a day or so block it out with 180 if yu plan on priming once more, if not just go with 500 wet.

I did some research on K200 if you do indeed use it, it MUST be sealed if using DDL(lacquer) any black topcoat, DEU(enamel) and DU(urethane). K36 MUST be sealed for DBC, DBU black basecoat and black SS urethane. Anyway you plan on using SS urethane red.

Red is by far the weakest tint, meaning that the sun will burn out the red tints the fastest. Since SS has no clear coat for protection the red tint will burn out sooner then a baseclear paint job. The best thing to do is NOT skip on the SS urethane, a cheap one will die very quickly. PPG's best SS is DCC, if you do plan on using SS the best thing to do is buy it in DCC. PPG's other SS DAU is not as good as DCC, DAU will burn out sooner then DCC.

All thou it wasnt painted red, but green I restored a 1945 John Deere B for my dad. Half the tractor was painted with DAU and the other DCC because they run out of a tint in DCC. Anyway the DAU bunrt out in about 3 months

, were the DCC still looks like fresh paint 3 years later.

Painting with the etch then urethane primer surfacer will last the longest and look the best. Thats what I would do since you plan on keeping it a year or two and not wanting to dump it.
DPLF is mixed 2:1 for primer. To change the dp from primer to sealer all you need to do is add one part of dt reducer so the mix ratio would be 2:1:1...Eric

ART T · Jun 8, 2003

Make some calls and see if anyone in your area sells Montana products. Thier primers are very good and reasonably priced.

troy-curt · Jun 9, 2003

Dave;
Just thought i`d put my 2 cents worth in. Everyone has a diffrent way of doing what your doing.

I use 320 grit for last step before sealer.
No need to prim the whole thing,just use fast fill on repaired areas, all the primer is for,is to fill the course sand marks and low spots and even out the edges of the repaired areas. Any good primer well work just fine.I use a fast fill easy sand cheap primer(WESTERN).I wont paint any thing without a non sanding sealer.I all ways use a two part sealer,sometimes with color.I use ppg and dupont.Most paint co.have different price ranges,I try to stay with a good quality paint for durablity.It`s just a few bucks more.

A good paint store will tell you what you need for what you are doing.----Good Luck;--Troy;

drptop70ss · Jun 9, 2003

Thanks for all the info guys, I am going to hit the paint supply house and see what they have. So far the only sealer I have tried is PPG DAS80 grey, it has worked well for me but I dont remember it being a two part sealer. I figure I will use the ethc primer/primer surfacer/sealer system, which is pretty much what I have done in the past but I have never tried the etch primer before. Because of the vinyl top removal, fiberglass hood, and repair spots the whole car may end up having to be hit with the primer surfacer anyway rather than just spots here and there.

sevt_chevelle · Jun 10, 2003

Dave,
Ive never heard of the sealer you talk about nor could I find it on any of my tech sheets. If the sealer is not a 2K or catalysted you are spraying a lacquer based product and just shooting yourelf in the foot. Lacquer products sprayed under todays products is just asking for trouble.

Since you stated that there is a few rust spots there and here on the car, you need to remove the rust the best you can. Just sanding with 80 or 36 grit WILLNT remove all traces of rust. The tinyest amount will come throu again. The best tool Ive found to remove rust that isnt going to be blasted or cut out is a product made by 3M called Scotch-brite clean n strip. Basically it looks like a black round sponge. The things eats paint,bondo and rust. Use that over any rust areas.

The reason I choose etch too was because if you indeed do miss any rust or dont clean it out at all, etch will help stop rust, it kills rust somewhat. It bites into the metal and attacks rust on the molecular level. Expoy or uerthane DONT do that they just lay on top. Expoy based sealer would be a better choice for a sealer because expoy doesnt allow moisture to work its way to the metal, it can after time. Urethane will not stop moisture. If you dont apply an etch the next best thing to do would be indded seal the entire car with a expoy based sealer such as dplf mixed in the 2:1:1 ratio.

Remember dont apply etch to fiberglass. Just sand any glass parts with 400 and or a scotch brite pad and shoot primer-surfacer.

Like mentioned before the etch/primer-surfacer then topcoat will be damn hard to beat...Eric

drptop70ss · Jun 10, 2003

Eric,
thanks, when I mean a few rust spots I mean rot that I will be cutting out and welding in patches. I will get all that done, filler work done and blended in, then etch primer, then urethane primer surfacer, block sand, fix anything I missed, then sealer, then top coat. After all that work maybe I should just go BC/CC. I was trying to keep this low buck but I always end up over doing things

I see you like the DX1791 etch so I will try that, then the K200..what sealer do you recommend? I am sure the sealer I was using was a 1K, can you recommend a 2K? Also what PPG line for the urethane SS or BC/CC if I go that way? Recommended clear to use? I will price both and if the BC/CC isnt much more maybe I will just go that way.

7D Smith · Jun 10, 2003

If you haven't made a decision yet------I'll add one more to the pile. Have knowledge of some great paint jobs (show cars as well as drivers)using Keystone products. They have two lines. The "good stuff" & body shop grades. Both are great products at very reasonable prices. You can check out all there product line at:
www.keystone-auto.com. Alot cheaper than PPG products. After all, someone has to pay for that product recognition advertising.
Good luck

drptop70ss · Jun 10, 2003

7D,
I checked out the website, it didnt look like they actually had their own paint, but were a distributor of PPG and others? Did I miss something? I will go through it again.

sevt_chevelle · Jun 10, 2003

Dave thought Id give ya a qquick response before I haed off for CB03

.

Al thou the clears Ill list are kinda high buck, they are best clears ive sprayed from PPG hands down. The best would be 2055 then 2042. A cheaper clear would be 2082 but its hard to buff. 2020 was a old standard for PPG but got dicontinuted a few years back due to VOC. The bad thing about that clear was It had a problem with orange peel coming back even after months of time. This was something that I noticed on my jobs that I sprayed and OTHERS that went thro the shop my shop. Dont know if these was a problem with all 2020 or just something that we experienced.

Anyway the point is 2020 was replaced by 2021 and from what Ive sprayed of that it gets somewhat the same results but not as bad. I have to stick with 2055 or 2042, that stuff rocks, way better then 2020 or 2021.

As for a sealer K36 is what we use at the shop. The great thing about K36 is that its a sealer or primer surfacer depending on how you mix it, thats why it so popular, you kill 2 birds with one stone. Regular primer it mixes 5:1, but I add half dt reducer to help it flow, K36 is fairly thick and has a 30 min potlife very short. So the mix for primer on k36 would be 5:1:.5. For sealer it mixes 4:2:2;1. K36 then DCC tint then dt reducer then dcx8. For a sealer it must be mixed with a non base coat tint such as DCC. Just buy a pt of tint from the supply house get a color that will be close to your final color chose. So really the best stuff to buy if you dont have any K200 would be K36 as you wont need 2 sperate products, k36 will be great choices for a primer surfacer and sealer.

Yes am a BIG FAN of dx1791, even bigger of dupont variprime.

If you look throu the tech sheets if you go to the paint store you will see tons of clears listed. All ranging from high dollar to middle of the road. Concept is PPG high dollar stuff(really Global is but) delta products are a bit cheaper then the concept. So you might want to look for a clear under the dleta label.

Like I mentioned before if you go SS urethane buy DCC any other and you will regret it. For base coat get DBC, DBU is cheaper but if the color is metallic DBU has a dirty look to it, DBC has a much cleaner brighter look...Eric

WayneK · Jun 11, 2003

Yes Keystone carries or labels a Line of Shop supplies.. Filler. Primer ect...
We used theree 2K with great success till about 4 months ago. seems they changed product or vender.. ( could never get a straigh answer from the rep ) and we developed ALLOT of shrinking problems on reworked areas..
Went back to Dupont.. now everythings
A-OK !!

figbash · May 1, 2005

I would also like to include a plug for Montana 2K urethane primer surfacer. I painted a car last summer with it and was thoroughly impressed. It went on well, built up fast, sanded easily and didn't shrink a bit. Don't quote me, but I think it was around $75/gal with catalyst. I wanted to try their top coat, but they couldn't match my color.

I'd also like to include a plug for PPG Omni. Yes, it takes more coats to cover and it requires a bit more skill to shoot without sags, but the color I shot was a third the price of Delstar and it looks just as good.

Low buck primer surfacers, what is out there?

drptop70ss

sevt_chevelle

drptop70ss

sevt_chevelle

hilks

boomhauer

drptop70ss

sevt_chevelle

ART T

troy-curt

drptop70ss

sevt_chevelle

drptop70ss

7D Smith

drptop70ss

sevt_chevelle

WayneK

figbash

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