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Alan,
Change your rear discs out to some 2 1/8 inch pistons from an Impala and the pedal effort will be easier, though with a little more pedal travel. Less front wear, but might need to adjust your proportioning valve a tad for hard stops (assuming you have an adjustable). I'm thinking it's most way sqeezed w/ the little 'sporler calipers. The 2 1/8 are better matched to your front, and the Impala I think still has drum in hat parking brake.
Explorer discs are only 1 7/8" piston... about 3/4 sqare inch less area. Very hard stops might see little diffference though in pedal effort.... but I'm not a psychic. Just think the Exploder rear discs are a bit small for a 12", 2 15/16" piston front. Cause a good hard pedal maybe...
Even going to a 1" master w/ manual w/ what you have will increase your line pressure, and still should have enough volume for your current brakes.
Might be worth a try if Wifey wants a try at the wheel ;)
 
chevry said:
Alan,
Change your rear discs out to some 2 1/8 inch pistons from an Impala and the pedal effort will be easier, though with a little more pedal travel. Less front wear, but might need to adjust your proportioning valve a tad for hard stops (assuming you have an adjustable). I'm thinking it's most way sqeezed w/ the little 'sporler calipers. The 2 1/8 are better matched to your front, and the Impala I think still has drum in hat parking brake.
Explorer discs are only 1 7/8" piston... about 3/4 sqare inch less area. Very hard stops might see little diffference though in pedal effort.... but I'm not a psychic. Just think the Exploder rear discs are a bit small for a 12", 2 15/16" piston front. Cause a good hard pedal maybe...
Even going to a 1" master w/ manual w/ what you have will increase your line pressure, and still should have enough volume for your current brakes.
Might be worth a try if Wifey wants a try at the wheel ;)
Are you saying swap the front calipers for those from an Impala? What year? The rear setup is staying put, but I don't mind changing calipers on the front. I do have an adjustable prop. valve. I was planning on upgrading to a hydraboost, which should make to effort a lot less. Trying other calipers in the meantime might be something to try. Thanks for the tip :thumbsup:

Oh, I ain't got no wifey, so I'm the only one that has to put up with the manual brakes ;)
 
I meant the rears because the Impala front calipers are the same size as yours... but you could accomplish the same with proper sized smaller front caliper piston(s). At this time you may have too much front/too little rear. Go to Stoptech.com and read up on their technical whitepapers about braking balance. Also do not use semi-mets with manual disc.

Examples of front:rear caliper balance based on piston area/ numbers are rounded off.

69 JL8 65:35
96 Explorer: 66:34
95 SS Impala: 66:34
79 T/A 59:41

You: 71:29

Your 12" front compared to the 11" rear further throws the balance to the front. I don't know what pads you have though.

Better balance will improve stopping distance and reduce pedal effort if done correctly.
 
One thing regarding the 94-96 Impala SS. The 66:34 figure, if that represents the factory brake bias (meaning the front brakes apply 66% of the force and the rears apply 34% of the force) that's not correct. It may be what the calipers front and rear were designed for, but GM screwed up with the proportion valve (they used the front disc/rear drum prop. valve). Yeah, the car stopped in 119 or so feet from 60mph, but the rear brakes basically never wore out. The brake bias was not correct. Rear brakes one those cars easily lasted more than 100k miles. The true bias as delivered from the factory was more like 90 to 95% front/ 5-10% rear. I modified my prop. valve to get the front/rear bias closer to 75/25%. Dramatic improvement was seen with reducing weight transfer to the front under braking. Front pads wore less. Stopping distance change slightly for the better (a few feet). If I can find the before-after test again, I'll post a link.

According the stoptech.com, the bias depends on many factors. When upgrading braking, they say it is best to achieve the same bias the factory had with the original setup. I have no idea what that bias was for my Chevelle. As far as my current balance, it's hard to stay what the bias is. Are you saying my bias is 71/29? So, the front is doing 71% of the braking? On paper that may look bad, but so far in my 60 to 0 stops with maximum braking effort, I have yet to have the rear tires lock up. In fact, neither the front or the back tires lock up at all. Even on rain slick roads, I'm not getting any tire lock-up under hard braking.

I'm not saying my setup is perfect. I'd be willing to try different parts (front/rear calipers), pads, rotors, etc. Just I don't have enough knowledge of determining how to get the brakes to work better than current without my tires locking up under maximum braking effort. What I don't want to do is change out the rear brakes. I should be able to fine tune the braking system with calipers and pads, correct? As far as my current front pads, I'm using Performance Friction z-rate ceramic metallics. Rear pads are stock Ford Explorer pads.
 
Of course the rears wont lock. They be too tiny ;)

Nix the metallic fronts and get some organics. They have a higher CF. It will throw your balnce off even more to the front, but at least you might be able to stop. Do as others suggested and experiment with a smaller master for higher line pressure too, to get the ball stopping, so to speak.

You are correct on the SS. GM screwed that one up. They used the same combination block on those cars as the disc/drum models, but then again, they weren't running manual brakes. The fix for the balance on them is to remove the metering and proportioning valves from the valve body and run straight pressure.

The hydraulics are first and foremost to try to get the balance right, and you should start with factory specs, yes. Ideally your rotors would be the same diameter to make things easier to figure. I go by thumb rules rather than the intense math.

Here's my take:
Bias is thrown by things like center of gravity. It is the basis for which you choose your brake sizes. I make a distinction between balance and bias. It's probably not really right, but it helps to do the set-up. I think of it like a teeter totter with an offset fulcrum. The fulcrum (bias) is off to the front, so you have to find a way to get it balanced (make the front brakes bigger than the rear).

Your hydraulics are 71/29, balance being thrown further front by the different disc size. There is little chance the rears will lock with what you have, even if you jacked up the back end, had an aluminum axle, and ran my in-laws in the front seat. The rears are too weak in comparison. Doing all of that would change your bias, but not your balance (by my definition). Each brake would still do the same amount of work, but you would have adjusted the car to match the brakes (moved the fulcrum backwards).

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The OE hydraulioc balance with 4wheel disc was 65/35, 4wheel drum was 62/38. Estimating initial bias in this way doesn't work with disc/drum, unfortunately, but I believe it was listed as a 61/39 balance. Like I said, I dont do all the math.

The closer to 50/50 the balance is, the more likely you will need a prop valve, which is a good thing (though you dont actual;ly wany 50/50)

Running comparitively large back brakes with a prop valve is ideal for street driving, rather than setting the balance to not need one, because the prop valve allows full pressure to the rear during light-normal braking.
I would look for front calipers with a piston diameter of about 2.5-2.6" for single piston/ 2 or 4 piston calipers would need piston diameters of about 1.65-1.75".

Manual disc brakes depend heavily on pedal ratio. Verify that yours is over 6:1. GM changed the pedal ratio on many cars in the 70s to about 5.5:1. If you have the lower pedal ratio, it is nearly impossible to get 4wl manual discs to work.

Changing to smaller front calipers will definitely require a smaller master cylinder. For your best manual brake stopping, you would use a race setup with 2 single port masters and a balance bar. That way you can use even smaller masters for the extra line pressure without sacrificing pedal height, and you can manually adjust the balance in addition to having a prop valve.
If you choose to stick to a stock style master, you may have to add a little pedal travel with a smaller master to be able to lock the brakes.

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You could just do as others have suggested and experiment with a smaller master with your current brakes. It might do the trick for you to be satisfied. Your balance is off though. The hydraulics and the rotors both throw it to the front. Anything you would do to make the balance better with just pad materials will make it even harder to stop.

Howe makes a replacement lightweight 2.6" piston front caliper. It's better matched to your rears than what you have (2.9"), making your hydraulics a 65/35 match. Master size would be 15/16-1" bore. Dual bar masters would be 3/4-7/8".

Another alternative is you could run a dual racing master setup with what you have, with 2 different size masters, and be set. 7/8" for front brakes, 3/4" for rear. This would effectively change the hydraulic balance by sending two different line pressures... the higher pressure to the rear. Not really the ideal setup.


Or just go to power brakes, and forget about having good balance, kind of like they did with the Impala.

There are a lot of ways to get the car to stop in a satisfying manner. It is much more difficult to get it ideal.

Now I'm tired.
 
Bill,i have 4 wheel non- power disc brakes on my 72 nova and they don't stop worth a damn. Thats how i came to see your post me getting ready to make a post about whats the best way to fix this problem.If i was just starting out like you are i think i would go with power disc brakes.Master brakes sells a 7-8 inch booster. bill
 
Wow! There certainly is a lot of interesting stuff here. My contribution to Bill's quest is to say that I have not had a manual disk Chevelle yet. But,, I did buy a new Dodge van ( to haul my race bike) in '76 and got the manual disks. They were just fine and I liked them better than power because there was no hiss-squish delay that I feel with a power booster. So, my conclusion is that you will be satisfied with the conversion using the 15/16 MC and choosing some grippy linings.
 
I ordered the 77 master cylinder tonight, Oreillys will have it in a couple days, I can't wait to lose the power brakes, and I sure hope it still stops. Maybe a little more bias to the rear also, I can only hope.
 
Anyone know the reasoning for moving the front disc reservoir to the rear on this 77 Malibu M/C? Is the piston larger in the 77 than a stock 72? Some of you guys have links to find out all this stuff, thanks. I picked mine up yesterday and was checking it out, not sure when I'll get it mounted, I hate working in a cold garage and hate to fire up the kerosene heater when I've got other things to do later.
 
Bob West said:
Anyone know the reasoning for moving the front disc reservoir to the rear on this 77 Malibu M/C? Is the piston larger in the 77 than a stock 72? Some of you guys have links to find out all this stuff, thanks. I picked mine up yesterday and was checking it out, not sure when I'll get it mounted, I hate working in a cold garage and hate to fire up the kerosene heater when I've got other things to do later.
Bob,
Make sure you come back and let us know how it works after you do get the 15/16 MC installed.
Thanks bill
 
Bob West said:
Anyone know the reasoning for moving the front disc reservoir to the rear on this 77 Malibu M/C? Is the piston larger in the 77 than a stock 72? Some of you guys have links to find out all this stuff, thanks. I picked mine up yesterday and was checking it out, not sure when I'll get it mounted, I hate working in a cold garage and hate to fire up the kerosene heater when I've got other things to do later.
Bob it's because the larger reservoir needed for the calipers is in the back on the 77 Malibu master, opposite the OE power disk master.
Some of the OE nonpower disk masters have larger reservoirs front and back, like the 1" piston MP brakes sells.
 
If you mean why did they switch it, it probably has to do with the slightly different pressures the primary and secondary circuits exhibit due to their different internal return spring rates.
Or maybe they were just bored.

Oh, and the m/c bore for the manual brake 1977 was the smallest bore they had used to date on a disc/drum system with those sized calipers.
 
Bob West said:
Will do, but its gonna have to warm up a bit, I do not like working in a cold garage. I need at least mid 40's before its worth firing up the kerosene heater :D
I know what you mean. It is a -1 degrees here this morning and with the price of heating fuel the way it is I just don't want to go fire up the furnace in the shop.:mad:

So here I sit, when I should be down working on my planned updates to the velle, one of which is to install air conditioning. Hard to get excited about that one.:)
 
Provided it can deliver enough volume to your calipers.... depends on what calipers you are using... if not enough volume you will never get a pedal. It also might (doubtful) have a residual valve since it is originally for disc/drum.
 
I thought this was the m/c everybody was talking about that is a good choice for four wheel disc brakes? Im really confused on what to get for my 1972 nova which has wilwood disc two piston calp on all four corners? I have a brand new master brakes m/c 1 inch bore and it's just not getting the job done! Im at the point now i don't know if it's more psi i need or if it's more volume i need. I thought it was more psi i needed and was going to get this m/c because of the 15/16 bore?bill
 
I got the 77 MC mounted and brake lines hooked up, no more booster under the hood. The rod that came with the MC was too short, I had to modify the original pushrod, cut it off the booster, round the edges with a grinder and use it. Its adjustable too with the clevis that was on the original push rod. I also had to move the pushrod to the upper hole on the brake pedal. I bench bled the MC but the pedal is still spongey, so I'll bleed the brakes when I get help and let you know how they work.
 
Thanks BOB,Im having the same problem as you are having.Soft pedal and i have bleed the damn brakes for three day's.The m/c is not the correct size but really not sure which way to go at this point so I'll be cool on my stool untill I'm sure which direction to go. Your ride has disc/drum ,my car has disc/disc.Let me know bob.THANKS,BILL
 
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