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Carl67

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
I was planning to etch prime and use Rage Gold filler over on spots that I can't get perfect. Questions are if you sand the filler and the primer comes off around the filler to bare metal then how can you reprime without getting etch on the filler?

Also if I have pits and I get the rust out do I etch and then fill, sand ,K38 prime and block?

Sorry I'm a rookie.

Carl
 
some people do use plastic fillers over etching primer but it's not suggested. The filler will soften the etching primer, solvents from the filler will be absorbed by the primer. The primer will eventually dry out again but takes quite awhile, and what it does to the primer in regards to adhesion is unknown or at least unknown to me :rolleyes: If you want to use a self etch below plastic filler you may be able to put a couple of coats of epoxy primer over the self etch to act as a solvent barrier then apply the plastic filler. Or do as most and do the filler work first directly on the bare steel then apply the etch primer.
I prefer to apply two to three coats of epoxy to the bare metal then do my filler work followed by two more coats of epoxy then a urethane surfacer primer. The self etching primers haven't proven to be worth much in reguards to corrosion protection and adhesion compared to the epoxies I have been using. I'm sure the self etching primers are a little more forgiving if the panel isn't perfectly clean considering the amount of solvent and acid they contain.
I visit over 50 collision shops on a regular basis, none of them use self etching primers or epoxies on a regular basis. The collision industry has gone to mostly direct to metal urethane primers which are very fast and high build. Some are even cured with UV light in as little as 20 seconds I am told, some are applied with miniature paint rollers :rolleyes: Technology has given us many options.
Evercoat now has a polyester primer designed especially for use over self etching primers which gives us another option being that any polyester filler would do just fine if applied to a polyester primer, then the self etch would work good as a base primer.
Sorry if I'm rambling here, I guess your best bet is to follow the tech sheets supplied with each product :cool:
 
Are there any lifetime warrantees from PPG, DuPont or the others where the lack of etch is an option?
 
Discussion starter · #5 ·
I have seen post where guys are using etch under filler and say it's the best way. I don't want to do this again so I'm stumped, don't know the BEST way to proceed.

Start to finish with part numbers would be very cool, just don't know.

Sorry,

Carl
 
Carl, the facts are not too hard to decipher, the hard part is wading thru all the opinions.
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Bob is 100% correct, yet not everyone does it that way, and they aren't "wrong" either. I think without a doubt he is right. If you want to do the ultimate, apply etch primer then your filler. Then, after filler is done a urethane primer is applied so you can final block and "surface" it to perfection.

Depending on where you are as far as climate, epoxy primer may not be that much better on that bare metal. As Bob mentioned, he visits over 50 shops and none of them use etch or epoxy. Not so much that they have some great products to "replace" one of these two, it is because they have products that "may" not need it. In other words, in your typical shop you just don't have the time to apply epoxy before filler (give me a break) and in the paint dept., most do not use etch primer for the same reason, or not wanting to spend the extra money on the etch. The products they use "get by" without the etch.

I have not seen the warrantees that are offered by the big boys in a few years, so something might have changed. But in every single life time warrantee I have ever seen, etch was included.

Personally, I live in climate where the epoxy just isn't needed. I know of not one single person who uses it before filler, restoration shop or what ever. That is NOT saying it isn't the best way to do it.

I can say this, the more I read about it, the more I feel, more people should be doing it. I think back to when I was paint repping and would visit shops right on the coast of California, epoxy would have been a darn good idea for them!

So when you come down to it, the facts are, you can apply filler over bare metal then etch (if your tech sheet recommends it, not all etches do) then a urethane primer for surfacing over the entire panel (usually over the whole panel on a resoration) then sand and paint.

OR epoxy over bare metal (or even etch then epoxy, again, read the tech sheets) then body filler, then a urethane over that for surfacing.

Choose one and get to work.
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Discussion starter · #7 ·
Brian,
Thanks much for you time. I'm in IL. and the car will not be driven in bad weather. I've replaced the floor pans I have the trunk to do yet and I'm reading all I can about the body work and plan to paint it myself, mostly because I had a bad experience with a paint shop with my son's car. I don't in any means think that it is easy to do a great paint job but I think I can do a good job.
I searched and found the same things that your saying so I'll do it the proven way.
My supplier sells PPG so part numbers for the good proven supplies would be a great help. etch,urethane, BC/CC

Thanks much,
Carl
 
The PPG lifetime for Deltron states that the use of etch primer(dx1791) must be used on bare metal.

Right from the PPG manual. the top one is when using NCP primers which are even labeled as corrosion resistant, yet it still states the use of etch or epoxy.

The second is using k36 primer surfacer.

I agree with Bob that most shops DONT use an etch or epoxy for pretreatment, but look at the type of work they are doing. When was the last time you walked into a shop and saw the whole entire side of car stripped bare or even a fender? If you do have bare spots most are no bigger then the size of a fist or two. When you deal with stuff like that you can get by without using those products, but say you strip an entire fender or door to bare metal, I sure hope you do use a pretreatment!!

2. Approved Paint Systems
PPG – Rigid Substrates (Steel and Aluminum)
Deltron Systems (Cont’d)
Clearcoat • DCU2082 StratoClear™
Specialty Coating *** DCU2060 Flexed-Flat Clear
Basecoat DBU / DBC * Deltron Basecoat **
Undercoat Primer NPC270 Corrosion Resistant Primer
Anti-Corrosion Primer DPX170 Chrome Self-Etching Primer
DPX171 Non-Chrome Self-Etching Primer
DX1791 Wash Primer
Metal/Aluminum
Treatments #
DX533 Aluminum Cleaner /
DX503 Aluminum Conditioner


Clearcoat • DCU2002 High Solids Polyurethane Clear
DCU2021 Urethane Clear
DCU2035 3.5 VOC Clear
DCU2042 Low VOC Speed Clear
DCU2055 Clear
DCU2082 StratoClear™
DCD35 3.5 Compliant Clear
Specialty Coating *** D2060 Flexed-Flat Clear
Basecoat DBU / DBC * Deltron Basecoat **
Surfacer K36 PRIMA™ Acrylic Urethane Primer
Surfacer
Anti-Corrosion Primer DPX170 Chrome Self-Etching Primer
DPX171 Non-Chrome Self-Etching Primer
DX1791 Wash Primer
DPLF Non-Sanding Epoxy Primer
Metal/Aluminum
DX533 Aluminum Cleaner /
 
Yep Eric, I have seen the test panels used at S-W, etch primer WORKS, period.

Carl, don't cut your self short. Restoration work is the easiest of all paint and body. You have all the time in the world to do a PERFECT job.

Believe me, I have been in MANY restoration shops, and done it my self. The restoration shop owner wants you to think he walks on water. Believe me, they usually (please, someone is reading this believes they are the exception, I said "Usually"
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) are a very poor body and paint guy. It is the only work they can do because they have the time to do it over and over to get it right. Many times at the car owners expense!!!

My brother is living this right now! $20,000.00 for body and paint on his 55 F-100 and it looks like CRAP!. The poor bastard doesn't have a clue how to set up a gun, and this is the least of his worries, he just plain doesn't have a clue.

My brother got impatient and wouldn't wait to get it in the show where I work. He is paying in spades.
 
Carl, am a PPG fan so ill give some part numbers
Etch primer dx1791, reason is: It STILL contains the lead and chromate!! The DPX etches are NOT compatible with some products were DX1791 is.

Epoxy if you choose is DPLF, Ive heard some great things but EPX900 epoxy also. I checked with my rep, epx900 is pretty close to DPLF but has a higher durability rating.

Primer surfacers you have a few. K36, k38 or NCP270/272. Id go with either K38 or NCP primers, I like K38 myself.

Basecoats hands down DBC

Clearcoats: 2055 then 2021 then 2042. 2055 has the best DOI(deeper gloss)and durability of all PPG Deltron clears.
Theres tons of other PPG clears out there and 2 soon to be released, but those 3 are the best PPG has to offer as of right now...Eric

If you want to see what NOT treating metal can do Ill post some pics of a truck that JUST came in this afternoon. Peeling paint is always fun
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Originally posted by MARTINSR
Believe me, I have been in MANY restoration shops, and done it my self. The restoration shop owner wants you to think he walks on water. Believe me, they usually (please, someone is reading this believes they are the exception, I said "Usually" ) are a very poor body and paint guy. It is the only work they can do because they have the time to do it over and over to get it right. Many times at the car owners expense!!!

My brother is living this right now! $20,000.00 for body and paint on his 55 F-100 and it looks like CRAP!. The poor bastard doesn't have a clue how to set up a gun, and this is the least of his worries, he just plain doesn't have a clue.
Wow Brian, sorry to hear about your brother's experience. A shop doing work like that doesn't last very long in this area. Usually the guys around here doing restoration and custom work also do some collision work. Everybody likes beating book time and cashing in on the easy money now and then. Personally,I like the custom and restoration work because it showcases the work I take so much pride in.


To get back on subject, Carl your best bet is to follow what the product manufacturers recomend, that way if a product failure occurs the cause cannot be blamed on application. My epoxy under filler proceedure was first suggested by a PPG rep about 14years ago. I've had excellent results without any failures so I will continue using the proceedure. Self etching primers do offer more adhesion for sure but I've never seen epoxy fail when the substrate has been properly prepped (cleaned and textured). An interesting thing is Fusor recomends epoxy as a base for some of the adhesives they sell, not self etching primer
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Adhesion with epoxy must be good if they recomend it as a substrate for the adhesive.
 
Discussion starter · #12 ·
To all,

Thanks much for the clerification on the numbers and will use your recommendations. I talked to the PPG suppliers about the EE Deep water blue and he said it will not be the same as the old enamel but very close. I think this is the color I'm going with if I ever get that far?? He also said I don't need etch just epoxy and filler over that, But I'm going to etch first like you all think is best.
Just a warning to others I got this car site unseen from pictures and was delivered at night. (Not a smart move on my part I know)
The next day I took it for a drive and antifreeze started coming out of a freeze plug. Pulled up the carpet and rust everywhere and trunk. He had welded in some patch panels over rust and said he had replaced the floors. He sprayed undercoating over everything.
So I did get some money back and did keep the car.
The motor was completely redone by a good friend and a new rebuilt 350 auto, out with the powerglide. new floor almost done and trunk to do and the body is ok but need some attention.
So the moral to the story is don't buy on a whim even when your wife said it's ok and do your research.
I should have sold it as is and cut my loses but I have a soft heart for this old 67 and when I'm done I will be happy with it. Thanks to all of the knowledge I've gotten from Team Chevelle I will make it.

Carl
 
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