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Discussion starter · #21 ·
Bob West said:
He never gives up, does he? I vote for a ban on all political threads, we all believe the way we believe and someone cutting and pasting to the board does not help. Jerry I believe posted a link to what has happened since NAFTA, and there was a blip in there about hurting the mexican farmers, but Dans cut n paste says it affects U.S. farmers. You can find anything you want on the net, and counteract what anyone else says or cut n pastes. The U.S. will prevail. Not much use for gloom n doomers :thumbsup:
Read the label on all you clothes, house wares, heck anything you buy. Let me know how much of your possessions are made in the USA. Then let me know how much is made in China. The USA produces little of nothing anymore, which is just a fact. No one needs to cut and paste to see this country’s trade DEFICIT. I vote for anyone that is not interested in saving this country to skip the thread :) I will never give up the fight for America…sorry Bob
 
Bob West said:
I vote for a ban on all political threads, ...
What should we do Bob? Ban political posts and preserve the right to post links to the latest EBabe or the joke of the day. How about we ban those who can't respectively disagree or just move on to another post. Dan and I are certainly not political allies, we disagree on many issues. I wouldn’t mind discussing his views in another setting but not here. This forum does not lend itself well to debating such important topics.

I do however think he has the right to post about topics that are important to him and I have the right to move on to another post and not get caught up in it.

I also respect Dan for posting these topics when he knows the heat he’s going to get over it. Dan and I do agree on some things, we both love this country and want what’s best for it. So when he posts a new political thread I usually just pass on it, maybe I glance at it, maybe not. He's only trying to make us aware of something he feels his important to all of us. I don't have to agree with him on it but I respect him for it.

EDIT: I'm not any better that anyone else here and am not trying to pretend I am. I started debating Dan on a topic a long time ago and it got out of hand and I apologized to him. I'm also guilty off of making off topic replies in response to someone else's reply. I'm still learning and I've learned this is what works for me. Disagree, respectfully, or move on.
 
Discussion starter · #24 ·
Bob West said:
you ought to just say " I will never give up posting this crap" sorry Dan, you won't get elected senator here. Take it to another message board, its gettin old, FAST!!
Bob,

Its real simple my friend - Don't click on the thread. Problem solved. :)
 
Discussion starter · #26 · (Edited)
Finally said:
What should we do Bob? Ban political posts and preserve the right to post links to the latest EBabe or the joke of the day. How about we ban those who can't respectively disagree or just move on to another post. Dan and I are certainly not political allies, we disagree on many issues. I wouldn’t mind discussing his views in another setting but not here. This forum does not lend itself well to debating such important topics.

I do however think he has the right to post about topics that are important to him and I have the right to move on to another post and not get caught up in it.

I also respect Dan for posting these topics when he knows the heat he’s going to get over it. Dan and I do agree on some things, we both love this country and want what’s best for it. So when he posts a new political thread I usually just pass on it, maybe I glance at it, maybe not. He's only trying to make us aware of something he feels his important to all of us. I don't have to agree with him on it but I respect him for it.

EDIT: I'm not any better that anyone else here and am not trying to pretend I am. I started debating Dan on a topic a long time ago and it got out of hand and I apologized to him. I'm also guilty off of making off topic replies in response to someone else's reply. I'm still learning and I've learned this is what works for me. Disagree, respectfully, or move on.
Hank,

I want to sincerely thank you for your support on this thread. I know we both are in total agreement on one thing - We Love This Country! :)
(and thanks stating that as well)

I try and share factual information on this board (i.e. CAFTA, FTAA). I do have my opinions of which obviously I am not shy about, having said that, more importantly my hope and agenda is to let people know about these issues. You know, just this past weekend I was talking to two neighbors, neither of which had ever heard of CAFTA, never mind it has already passed. This is what bothers me so much. Congress passing something as important as CAFTA and most Americans haven’t a clue. SO if I can reach out on this board and get a couple of people interested, I feel good about that.

Obviously we are all grown man and will make our own decisions of what to think of these bills, but please for the love of GOD – know what they are, know that they exist and know how they can and will effect you life.
 
Discussion starter · #27 ·
On a somewhat relaced note, China's CNOOC oil company has dropped its bid for Unocal.
 
Discussion starter · #29 ·
Byfield said:
On a somewhat relaced note, China's CNOOC oil company has dropped its bid for Unocal.

Certainly good news! I just don't think China will give up that easy...
 
Free trade give the multi-nationals a free hand to do what they want where they want to maximize profits. We should have free trade only with countries that live under the same rules that we do. Communist China has basically a 3 billion slave work force. Can we compete with that or the less than $1 per hour that they get paid. No. Polution laws, I don't think most of these countries know the meaning of the words. Human rights don't exist as we know them. Health and safety laws. None. Not to mention their trampling on copyrights and patents. The WTO, a mystery group of unelected people, are going to drag our standard of living down the tubes. We had better wake up.....if it isn't already too late.
 
Finally said:
Yea, we need to protect those easy good paying jobs that don't require an education. In the mean time the rest of the major countries in the world are doing a much better job of educating their children. Yea protect those jobs and someday we'll be a third world country exporting crap to Korea and China, making $2 a day while they make all the real money.
That's a key point! China and Japan educate there own children and here in California we brag about having 80 different languages in our public schools:clonk:
The drastic fall in test scores over the last 30 years can be attributed to the Mexican invasion.
 
MalibuJerry350 said:
Dan,
Jobs will continue to leave this country everyday as long as consumers want and DEMAND cheaper products. I've worked in the electronics field for well over 40 years now and have seen HUGE changes in the consumer AND professional electronics area over that span of time. Isolationaism doesn't work...never has.
I'm seeing more and more China products that are NOT any cheaper then the American product they replaced. It's not up to the consumer, try purchasing a piano with an ivory keyboard these days!

The word "isolationist" gets thrown around as much as liberals call everyone a racist! We want balanced trade not so called free trade.

Plus it's a national security issue. It's a little scary buying bullets made in China to fight the PC war in Iraq!

 
hilljack said:
I'm seeing more and more China products that are NOT any cheaper then the American product they replaced. It's not up to the consumer, try purchasing a piano with an ivory keyboard these days!
This has to be the biggest tangent I've seen here since 1998. Equating offshoring of jobs to preventing the slaughter of elephants for ivory?
 
hilljack said:
That's a key point! China and Japan educate there own children and here in California we brag about having 80 different languages in our public schools:clonk:
The drastic fall in test scores over the last 30 years can be attributed to the Mexican invasion.
I can't speak for California but I think we're all responsible for this as a country. As long as those great paying jobs in manufacturing existed, the ones that don't require any education beyond high school if even that, why go on to further your education? Those jobs may or may not be hard work, don't care to debate that, but they paid well and offered good benefits. Why go to college when you can have a nice home in the burbs, 2 or 3 cars, a boat, etc. without all that extra work and expense?

It's time we as a country learn that we no longer have a claim on manufacturing. Other countries have learned and are just as good if not better at it than we are. We need to educate our chilrdren so we can continue to be leaders. I know you and Dan think we can protect our manufacturing base but I don't think so. If we attempt to it will come at a great cost, either cost of living will go up dramatically or we'll have to greatly lower our expectations and do without a lot of things we now take for granted. As already mentioned isolationism doesn't work, it's been tried many times and failed everytime. If we can't make widgets cheaper than China then who's going to buy our widgets? Education, technology and thought leadership, we've always been an innovative hard working society. It's time to move our energies to an area where we can continue to be leaders. That area is not in manufacturing and hasn't been for a long time.

EDIT: I see you addressed the issue of isolationism. Balanced trade, I'm all for that. I said previously we need to crack down on countries like China and Korea that don't respect our copyrights and patents. We need to crack down on those countries that flood our markets with goods at artificially low or government subsidized prices. We need to crack down on those that don't allow ready access to their markets but want access to ours. I never said things were perfect, I just feel if handled properly everyone can benefit from global trade.

Go sit in any college classroom. You'll see a very large percentage of foreign students. These people are making an investment in their future that for some reason many Americans don't feel they need to be bothered with.
 
Discussion starter · #36 ·
Just what exactly is the significance of the CAFTA vote as it relates to our ability as American citizens to shape our destiny?

When promises of "pork" are made to congressmen to change their votes, is this not bribery? Isn't the use of positive/negative reinforcement operant conditioning (rewards and punishment) basically what the Russian Ivan Pavlov and the American B.F. Skinner recommended as the method to change animal behavior and to create robots? Such conditioning bypasses the brain with all the important functions which distinguish man from an animal: memory, conscience, imagination, insight, and intuition, functions by which human beings know absolutes and truths and are able to know God.

Unfortunately chairmanships were threaten, and again pork spending for districts were promised. Obviously operant conditioning works, whereas trying to persuade a human being to change his mind/vote using reason, logic, etc. does not always work since one is up against an individual's free will and conscience. Have you ever known a dog (an animal without free will or conscience) who would not drool and sit when he is assured of getting a dog biscuit?

The Congressmen who changed their votes from UNDECIDED to YES were victimized by the use of Pavlovian/Skinnerian operant conditioning.

In fact, most of the Congressmen and Senators who voted yes were undoubtedly victims of this inhumane method of controlling behavior through the promise of goodies (pork) for their congressional districts, in which case their constituents will reward them by re-electing them the next time around. Click here to see vote.

In our anguish over this sovereignty-busting vote we must not forget to thank all who voted NO on the CAFTA. Pick up the phone and get busy making thank you calls. And be sure to ask them to vote NO on the forthcoming FTAA. Congressional switchboard number is: 202-224-3121.
Special thanks should go to those who were "undecided" and refused to succumb to the offers of funding for bridges, roads, etc. Yesterday's list of the "undecideds" can be accessed by going to thelibertycommittee.org . Find out from today's media coverage which of the "undecideds" held firm in their convictions.

This is just the beginning of our assault on the traitors in Washington who are selling our birthright for a mess of pottage. They are the Judases of the 21st Century. Judas betrayed our Lord to the pharisees for thirty pieces of silver. Our Congressmen have betrayed their constituents in exchange for lucrative deals promised by the White House.


All of us who fought this battle so valiantly will NOT stop now. We are fortunate that we have one more chance to take a stand for America and all that she represents. If we came this close to victory in the Senate and the House, there is no reason under the sun, except laziness and lack of focus, that we cannot defeat the Free Trade Agreement of the Americas (FTAA) when it comes up for a vote. Stay tuned by going to www.stoptheftaa.org.

Cicero in the year 42 B.C. discussed what is going on in the Halls of Congress when he said:

A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and he carries his banners openly. But the traitor moves among those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the galleys, heard in the very hall of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor—he speaks in the accents familiar to his victims, and wears their face and their garment, and he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation—he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of a city—he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to be feared.......Cicero, 42 B.C.E.
 
Discussion starter · #37 ·
Finally said:
As already mentioned isolationism doesn't work, it's been tried many times and failed everytime.

EDIT: I see you addressed the issue of isolationism. Balanced trade, I'm all for that. I said previously we need to crack down on countries like China and Korea that don't respect our copyrights and patents. We need to crack down on those countries that flood our markets with goods at artificially low or government subsidized prices. We need to crack down on those that don't allow ready access to their markets but want access to ours. I never said things were perfect, I just feel if handled properly everyone can benefit from global trade.

Go sit in any college classroom. You'll see a very large percentage of foreign students. These people are making an investment in their future that for some reason many Americans don't feel they need to be bothered with.

EDIT: Hank, Oops, Sorry, I see you did address my comment on this. Actually the figures are more like 13.5 % - but the point being this country cannot continue this trend of Huge deficits. I think we can all agree to that.
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With all due respect, your statement is simply not true. Up until 1973, we were considered a closed economy only importing about 13.5% of our goods. We now import far more then we export mounting to a half trillion dollar trade deficit and climbing. All in the name of globalization.

Trade agreements (i.e., GATT - now WTO, NAFTA and CAFTA) are nothing more then sovereign eroding schemes for the elites (i.e. international bankers & corporations). If they were true trade treaties (which is what WTO, NAFTA and CAFTA are) they would need 2/3’s of the Senate for approval. However, insidiously they call them an agreement, hence, majority vote takes all.

Our trade deficit climbs every month setting new records; do we honestly believe this country can continue on this path without repercussions?
 
Discussion starter · #38 ·
John_Muha said:
I bought a flyswatter that's made in Korea. It seems to work but I can't tell which side is up. I wish it would have had instructions.
The instructions are being printed in China as we type. ;)
 
00WS6TA said:
EDIT: Hank, Oops, Sorry, I see you did address my comment on this. Actually the figures are more like 13.5 % - but the point being this country cannot continue this trend of Huge deficits. I think we can all agree to that.
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With all due respect, your statement is simply not true. Up until 1973, we were considered a closed economy only importing about 13.5% of our goods. We now import far more then we export mounting to a half trillion dollar trade deficit and climbing. All in the name of globalization.
I definately agree with the deficit statement. As far as being a closed economy until 73, basically true but not true isolationism. More importantly things have changed dramatically since 73. In that day we were lucky to be one of the few countries with abundant natural resources. We still are quite fortunate but no longer have enough resources to meet our needs, or should I say desires. We have excess capacity in some areas and a shortfall in others, what's the solution other than trade?
 
Discussion starter · #40 ·
Finally said:
I definately agree with the deficit statement. As far as being a closed economy until 73, basically true but not true isolationism. More importantly things have changed dramatically since 73. In that day we were lucky to be one of the few countries with abundant natural resources. We still are quite fortunate but no longer have enough resources to meet our needs, or should I say desires. We have excess capacity in some areas and a shortfall in others, what's the solution other than trade?
Hank,

Please don't get me wrong, I am not against TRUE free trade, I am against pseudo free-trade agreements that compromise our sovereignty and exploit cheap/slave labor (whatever one wants to call it), again in the name of free trade. All these phony agreements are doing is lowering our standard of living, while serving the corporate interest. I am also against huge trade deficits, which climb on a monthly basis.

I thought we publicly announced the end of slavery in 1863; really what elites have concocted is a scheme to outsource it.
 
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