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Tonyr

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
On the dyno, I found some possible oil leaks.

It leaks between the heads and the block.

Could this be possible? I can't figure out where and how the oil could be leaking between the heads meets the block. I can understand water but I can't figure out how oil could come through.

It is dry in front and rear where the heads meet the block. But on the sides are where I see oil. You can see in the pictures where I've drawn arrows.

The engine builder says it's not leaking oil. I pointed out to him but he says it's not leaking. He even rubbed his finger over the oil, sees the oil on his fingers and still says it's not leaking. He said it's probably from oil from somewhere else. Is he Bull $hitting me?

Can you help me understand where it could possibly leak? Especially between the heads and block?

Could it be from the assembly oil?

But it seems like it's still coming out after few dyno runs.

Leak 1

Leak 2

Leak 3

My concern is that he's bull $hitting me so he doesn't have to tear it apart.

Or, I could be anal, again.

Thanks.
 
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hey,
the motors coming along pretty good as ive seen. the video was pretty cool too. my dads more knowledgable than myself when it comes to troubleshooting and he said its probably the head gasket. hope its something that simple. i know how aggrivating things can be sometimes. good luck.
 
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Tony,
I overheated my motor once and the next day I had oil leaking at the rear of the block on the drivers side where it meets the head. Wasn't a slow leak either. It dripped out of there like it was bleeding. Turns out that when it overheated, the head warped. If you dry it off and it comes back.....it's leaking. You are not anal about it, you've got a leak. (If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck....it's a duck) Are you sure it's not the valve cover gasket from another point on the head and just running down to those points you had on the picture? Wipe it off, clean the area and fire it up again. Look closely with a good bright light.

Good luck,
Jim

------------------
My 70 Chevelle
427 + (.125")
Best ET 12.53@110.3 (so far)
BSE Power

[This message has been edited by Epistuff (edited 11-28-2001).]
 
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I agree, I would wipe it clean and sit there with the builder and watch. I believe they make a dye that can be put into oil and then tracked with a fluorescent bulb to track a leaks source. Might wanna ask him about that as well.

Dont take that sucker out of that shop until YOU are 110% satisfied...nevermind what he says.

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'70 SS 396
4spd, 4.11's and a smile
TC# 1341
Beaux

"You're just jealous because the little voices are talking to me"
 
Discussion starter · #5 ·
Just got off the phone with the builder.

He said if it's a head gasket then it would be water instead of oil.

I disagree.

It's not looking good as he is confident that there is nothing wrong.

I plainly see oil, and he continues to tell me don't worry.

My concern is he is going to put it in the car and later, I'll find a leak.

I know it's a lot to pull the heads but, it's going to be a pain in the a$$ once the motor is in.

Once the heads are warped, how would you fix it?
 
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Unless he overheated the engine on the dyno, I doubt you have a warped head.

What did you guys use for head gaskets? I remember seeing a reciever groove machined in the head right? Are they copper gaskets?

If their copper, then they are prone to leak...they have no place in a street car IMO. Fel Pro makes a composition gasket for the reciever groove like your heads have I believe...hopefully that's what youy guy used.

I see no place for oil to leak around the head unless it somehow ran doen one of the head bolts/studs inside the valve cover area, but that is unlikely as they should seal against the head when torqued down.

It shoudln't be coolant from the studs as the Merlin block has blind tapped head bolt holes.

The one place I could see oil is if it leaked at the corners of the intake manifold and the oil ran down under the head slong the side of the head gasket and cam out below the head between it, the gasket & block.

I agree with what the others said...your paying a huge amount of money, so get this taken care of before it gets put back in the car...and don't pay the whole bill till your sure it's to your satisfaction.

For what I'm guessing your paying, I'd expect that bugger to be perfect in every way.

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Malibumotorsports
79 Malibu, 414 ci BBC, 3550 lbs.
10.75 @ 125 mph, 1.49 60'
 
Not too long ago someone else had this same problem. Something about a plug in the deck not sealed properly? Something like that. I do remember they said you have to pull the heads to fix. Try searching for it. Good luck. Any dyno #'s?

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70 Chevelle 15.01 @96
67 Camaro street strip 11.63 @117.6
67 Camaro daily driver 12.10 @110.6
www.geocities.com/lonnie67_1966
 
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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tonyr:

It's not looking good as he is confident that there is nothing wrong.

I plainly see oil, and he continues to tell me don't worry.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tony , it isn't a contest. Who care what you look like. After all you are the customer. Plain and simple.....if your nice shiny motor was clean and dry before you fired it up and now you can wipe the block with your fingers and get oil on you hand, then the oil in the motor found a way to get out of the motor. If it isn't the head, then have him show you where it came from and fix it. And yes, a warped head/gasket area can leak oil. The oil has to go back down from the heads into the pan. Pull a valve cover off and look at the path it takes. It's those big holes in the ends of the heads that also pass right through the block. Mine leaked! Todd is right, if it didn't overheat, they should not be warped. If they are warped, milling them true again fixes that.

Jim


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My 70 Chevelle
427 + (.125")
Best ET 12.53@110.3 (so far)
BSE Power
 
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If you have an honest engine builder you do not have a problem. If the leaks continues, he will gladly fix it rather than do shoddy work.
Does the oil pressure vary while it is being run?
 
Sorry to hear about the minor snag Tony. I too doubt that it's a failed head gasket this early in the game.

Do check the intake manifolds' rear corner seals. As Todd said, they DO leak and hot oil will flow down the top side of the block...but b/c the head sits on top you'll have a difficult time seeing it. Then it will run down the horizontal side of the block to the spot where you can see it and wipe it with your finger.

Lonnie mentioned the oil galley plug. I know where it's at on a mouse motor but not sure of the exact location on a rat. On a small block, it's almost entirely covered by the head BUT also understand that if that plug were missing or really loose, you'd have one heck of oily mess. It may be leaking a tad but that would be unusual. Fear that you'll have to pull the head to fully inspect though.

One other area to look closely at is your distrubutor's base gasket. Try wiping your finger across the back of it to detect wet oil. It will follow the exact same path mentioned above if the oil is coming from this spot.

Wouldn't hurt to look closely at those valve cover gaskets. New oil is hard to see when flowing down a new aluminum head. I'd pull both valve covers to inspect the gaskets for seepage as well. Good luck, hang in there and let us know what you find.

EDIT: One other source of that oil could also be from before she was even fired up for the first time. If anyone had poured oil into the heads from the top side and the covers were never really tightened down, some of it could have pooled up in one corner of the valve cover, run down the head and settled between the block and heads...waiting to be cooked off.
Image


We had a similar mystery leak on the 502 that appeared to be coming from the front of the oil pan - traced it all the way up to the valve covers. You'll find the source.

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502 Rat Infested 1970 Malibu - Gold Member #39
Keep America Beautiful - Drive A Brute Force Chevelle!
http://homepages.about.com/wescolby/1970bruteforcechevelle

[This message has been edited by Wes Colby (edited 11-28-2001).]
 
One thing that might help a bit when tryin to find the leak is instead of just plain wiping the areas down, spray it with something like brake cleaner or carb cleaner. Don't get trigger happy and spray it up the distributor cap or nothin
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, but just wherever you see the oil. All that liquid and pressure from the nozzle will blow the oil away. And it evaporates very quick to boot. Then wipe the residue away. Then quickly start watching for the telltale trickles of oil to pop back up. I do that when I'm lookin under a greasy car for leaks.
Sorry to hear about your problem. Just be firm and don't let that engine leave the stand till it's bone dry on the outside for certain. Just tell the guy that your car will be a rolling advertisement for his shop. If it leaks, don't run worth a crap, etc., then the high performance community will be soon to know about his business. That would give me a kick in the pants to stop pussyfootin around, pull a head IF I had to, solve the problem, and make my customer 110% happy.

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Justin Wray
Fathom Blue 1970 Malibu daily driver
1/8th mile best of 8.95 on street tires. 1/4 mile equivalent is 13.96
Still tuning for 8.30 in the 1/8th or 12.99 in the 1/4. Whichever comes first.....
 
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what ever happened to the good old fashion color dye-and the use of the black light???
this item has solved plenty of "leaks".
the engine builder should kick in for the$$$ to have this done.
Image
 
Discussion starter · #13 ·
Thanks for all your great advice.

Here's an update:

Yesterday, I called one of the forum members here to stop by the shop (since he is also familiar with them), and look for the leak and give me his opinion. I asked him after his review (third party's opinion), to please tell me whether he sees a leak or not. If it's not leaking, then please tell me that I'm smoking dope and I should go suck on a pipe. The fact is, I see oil and the builder says it's dry.

Now, here's a little background about myself: I graduated from Law School. I hope it taught me the difference between wet versus dry. I am doubting myself now. I assume I am stupid. Therefore, I wanted to get a third opinion (from one of the TC forum members who lives near by). Unfortunately, he was unable to stop by and look at the motor.

So, here's what I did yerterday: I called the shop. The owner's wife answers the phone. I said, "Hi Arlene, this is Tony. Please don't get upset with my request as I respect your knowledge, your reputation, and your work. However, because I see an oil leak between the heads and the block, could you please do a "color-dye" test? It's better to be overly cautious since the motor is not in the car yet. Also I AM WILLING TO PAY THE COLOR-DYE TEST."

Her simple answer, and I quote, "NO!"

This is what I hate...they feel they have me by the balls. I've paid everthing up front. My car is apart. It's hard to just pick up and go to another shop. At one point I came really close to getting a tow truck, go to their shop, put the car and motor on the a flat bed and go to another shop. This is how ugly it got at one point, unfortunately.

Here's the rest of my conversation. The wife puts me on hold after she said, "NO!".

The owner gets on the phone. I said, "Joe, please don't take things personal as I respect your knowledge and work. All I am asking is a color-dye test. I'll pay for it. Moreover, if we do find something wrong and if you have to tear the motor apart, I, TONY (the customer), WILL PAY FOR ALL THE COSTS."

He said, "Don't worry. We have a good reputation. We have been building motors for years. All the motors we build are dry. They do not leak! We don't need the dye test."

First of, don't you guys think my offer is more than reasonable? For crying out loud... I am offering to pay for everything. How many customers would offer this proposal? And the motor is not even done yet and here I'm offering to pay to tear it down if he has to.

Back to the conversation. I said, "Joe, I thank you for your confidence. I respect you as an engine builder. This is going to be a show car. I can't and don't want it to leak. Also, it will have your name on it as an engine builder. What can you do to help me if it leaks after I get the car?"

He said, "Don't worry, we'll take care of you!"

O.K., now I feel a little better. But, I would prefer not having a leak and having to put the car back in the shop, even if they don't charge me for fixing it. But, I prefer not have to deal with it at all if we can take care of it now. Is this reasonable? Or am I too anal? I can handle the truth. I am a perfectionist. I admit this. But, I am willing to pay for it as indicated above.

Conclusion: Here's my main concern...Once I pick up the car and drive away. Should something happen like a leak, here's what the shop is going to say, "Sorry, it's a hi-performance motor. It's also supercharged. We can't guarantee hi-performance motors that was built for racing. If customers take their car to the track or over-revs the motor, and it starts leaking, we can not guarantee this. In other words, once I'm off their lot, sorry out of luck fella.

They could say, "the motor was dry when you drove it off the lot. We met our promise."

Here's another thing, they won't put thing in writing. I have asked for thing in writing in the past, and they refused.

For example, before they built the motor, I ask for the estimated completion date. The owner said, "once we get all the parts, it will take approsimately two weeks to build and complete your motor."

I asked him to put this in writing. He refused. I figured since it's a reputable shop, I'll have to trust him.

Now, it's closed to FOUR months later and yet, it is not completed. But, I am willing to wait, so long as I get a good product. Is this reasonable on my part? If not, please let me know and I'll go suck on a pipe.

Well it doesn't look like they are going to do the dye test. I guess I have to take his word of confidence that it won't leak.

But here's one thing I have going for me: I have pictures and a "video" of the leak between the heads and block. Should it leak after I pick the car up (and I hope not), I plan to have it fixed at another shop, take him to court (I hope I don't have to do this), and ask for costs incurred.

Would this be prudent?

Sorry for the long post but just wanted to share with you the issues so that we can all learn from each other.

Thanks.
 
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I'll go back to my original thought process. Dry the thing off to the point where you both agree it is clean. Start the motor up and bring it to operating temp. Check your trouble spots for signs of oil. If it is wet, show the guy, have him fix it and that is that. I wouldn't deal with any shop that just won't work with me either. A flat out "NO" for something you are concerned about is not something I would be comfortable with. Do you really feel confident about his statement that if you have a problem in the future "He'll take care of you"? Why not take care of you now? Hey, maybe he is right and there is no leak and you were seeing things or it was residual oil from spillage. Either way, start with a clean motor and fire it up again. I don't know what you are paying for this motor, but it sure does not look cheap to me. make sure you get what you paid for.
Jim


------------------
My 70 Chevelle
427 + (.125")
Best ET 12.53@110.3 (so far)
BSE Power
 
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Does the shop owner know that you have a law degree? You may want to mention this in passing.
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You probably should not have paid up front.

What you suggest is not unreasonable.

Next time you talk to them, tell them, "I've spent a lot of money here in the past, and was planning on spending more in the future. But with this type of attitude, I think I will take my business elsewhere next time. Additionally, I will be sure to mention to everyone else that I talk to about my car that I was not satisfied with the work that you performed. If you can prove that there is no oil leak by performing a dye test, this MAY restore my confidence in you."


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Randy Johnson
70 Chevelle
454
12.449@107.80
1.766 60 ft.
 
Tony,

A couple thoughts. As stated above use carb or brake cleaner to completely clean the wet areas. Use a dry, blue paper, shop towel and wipe the area until NO oil transfers to the towel. Make certain that you both agree that it is dry. Start the motor and using a new, unsoiled, paper shop towel wipe the area again. There will be no question -either the towel will have dark oil spots or it will not.

I would also check the plugs for oil. If the oil ring is installed incorrectly you can be pushing oil up into the combustion chamber. If this is the case and you are seeing oil outside the motor then you also have compression leaks - unlikely but possible... and certainly worth a check.

I have not seen the answer yet as to if you are using copper head gaskets?? They are prone to leaking. Compression sealing is excellent with O-rings but water and oil... not so good.

Your builders statement that only water would leak if there is a sealing issue is incorrect. A water leak is more likely but you will see oil leaks from poor ring sealing and/or poor gasket sealing around the oil drain back holes.

A final thought - I would spend a great deal of time looking around valve cover gaskets, and intake gaskets. It is very common to find oil in one place (such as around the head) from leaks well above that location. Did you spill ANY oil while filling the motor? A small spill or leak will distribute oil far and wide. Especially on a very clean freshly painted block.

Do not take the the motor and install it in the car until you are satisfied. It is too much work to take it back out when you finally do find the leak in the worst possible location.

Best of luck and keep us posted.

------------------
My 70 Chevelle Race Page
hometown.aol.com/mkrauser/gmracing/gmracing.htm


70 Chevelle Fathom Blue
70 Malibu Convertible Midnight Regatta Blue

[This message has been edited by Mkrauser (edited 11-29-2001).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tonyr:
Now, here's a little background about myself: I graduated from Law School. I hope it taught me the difference between wet versus dry. I am doubting myself now. I assume I am stupid. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I cite the 1972 case of Wet Vs Dry, where Wet was found guilty, very much in the same way of Finders Vs Keepers
 
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Tony,

I think what you are asking is NOT unreasonable. I would be asking for the dye test too if I was in the same situation. Seems pretty obvious this shop doesn't like admitting it may have made a mistake or that something could be wrong. Just because motors in the past were dry, doesn't mean this or future motors will be dry. You're paying good money and this shop should work with you to make you happy. If you leave unsatisfied, they haven't done their job. I'm sick of hearing about places that provide lousy service
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, don't they realize if they tick enough people off they're business is going to suffer. It's one thing if Microsoft ticks people off (huge bankroll), but the little shop down the street better treat their customers right or they're out of business. We all know the power of 'Word of Mouth'.

I sure hope you get your leak figured out Tony. Looks like you've had a pretty bad experience so far. Hope you're not thinking about going back to this shop again. Keep us updated. Team Chevelle will put the word out that this shop has poor service
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1971 Chevelle
1994 Impala SS
1996 Schwinn when both are torn apart :)
The Silver Bullet
"If you don't have extra parts after a rebuild..you did it wrong"
 
Ah stop all the non sense just bead a little silcone around the area you'll be alright
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1970 chevelle
406 - TH-350 - soon to be 411's

My engine
updated pictures to come after the weekend :D
 
With the engine on the dyno/stand, you have the best access you will ever have to find the leak. Once the engine is in the car, your chances of pinpointing the leak are almost zero.

My oil pan has a slight weep and covers the bottom of the sump with an oil film. I've cleaned it off several times and still cannot find the source from under the car.

How much of the total cost have you paid so far? Money talks with these kind of people and hopefully you haven't paid too much out that you can use final payment as your bargening ticket. If you already paid a bunch in advance, you might just have to use your law degree to be able to get the engine completed to your satisfaction.

At least from your side of the story, it appears they have done a pretty good job of giving you the run around all along and refuse to put ANYTHING in writing.

Maybe now is the time to get firm and law down the law with them so to speak. It's time to basically say that your not satisfied, and you won't leave them alone until this matter is cleared up...if necessary, legal action will take place and you won't stop until they make things right.

It's such a little thing that it seems silly to have to take it to court, but then again, for what this engine is costing, these people need to make the customer happy.

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Malibumotorsports
79 Malibu, 414 ci BBC, 3550 lbs.
10.75 @ 125 mph, 1.49 60'
 
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