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Defective Repop Panel - a consumer response

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CoolBlueGlow

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Here's an idea to bat around about repop quality issues: Might be crazy...but it might empower we end users just a bit.

Many on this forum have experienced a bad fitting, poorly manufactured repop panel, right?

Some of us have complained, contacted the vendor, and even returned them, right?

So let's say a "bad" deck lid or other panel gets made and sold and returned? What do you think happens with these poor fitting return pieces? Are vendors crushing them? Returning them to Taiwan? Other? I don't know - and I'm not accusing anyone of reselling a part they KNOW is bad...but maybe we can attack a small part of this problem the old fashioned way.

Perhaps every time someone gets a defective piece, contacts the vendor and gets authorization for return, they should take their air cut-off wheel and carefully cut an deep "X" in the center of the sheet metal. Do this carefully so that there is no possible argument on the part of the vendor that the "MARK" is the reason the part won't fit. Perhaps deeply scribing the word DEFECTIVE into the part would be an option as well, depending on the part? In any case, work carefully and methodically so that no one can reasonably argue that the "DEFECTIVE" label caused the problem. With this "bad fit mark" permanently defacing the part, that means NO ONE CAN RESELL IT without acknowledging the fit issue.

I'm not talking about HANDLING DAMAGE issues, typical peckmark dents, or even the usual modest waves and stuff we have to work out of them. I'm talking about UNARGUABLE manufacturing errors...hoods that are 1/2" short of the correct dimension, Fenders with obviously incorrect style lines, deck lids with squared off corners that should be round, uneven wavy seams and other issues which cannot be debated.

After all, if a vendor accepts a part for return, they're certainly not going to want to put it back into circulation, right? So, we are doing them a service by marking the part so they can return it to the manufacturer with clear evidence of it's fault. An accompanying email clearly defining the problem in dimensions and with photographs, and WITHOUT cussing, shouting, or ugliness would be a great asset to any reputable vendor. Now, if the vendor calls back upset about the mark, you have the high moral ground. Calmly explain to them that the sole purpose of the mark is to clearly and permanently take the part off the market by marking it as a "cut-out" that is not suitable for resale. Hold your cool and your ground. Respectfully explain to them that the part is measurably incorrect and clearly "outside of tolerance" (like a hood that's 1/2" too short, etc.) Ask them to verify the dimension themselves. Inquire of them as to what possible use they could have for an out-of-tolerance part of this magnitude.

This is not the whole answer, but at least we start taking these defective part off the market. It will certainly send a message to the vendors that we're serious about these bad fit issues.

Maybe some of us are already doing this? Just a thought.


Keith
 
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Discussion starter · #3 ·
Dean,

Yes, I think you're right about the credit part. One would have to be ready to stand the ground even at financial cost. Many issues of principle are like this.

But we would be careful neither to think of it or acknowledge our action as some kind of petulant subversive behavior. We would do that with our behavior, our language and our attitude. Our moral high ground is the definitive removal of the part from circulation, regardless of the personal cost.

The vendor may not like it, but they cannot argue with this moral high ground. If we act this way with courtesy and consistency, perhaps a new dialogue channel can be opened in the battle to get q.c. on these panels?

We know that SOME of them are fitting, some are not. Clearly, it's possible to make ones that fit. If a reasonably skilled body worker can quickly spot the faulty panel, why not the manufacturer? Someone's turning a blind eye to this at the factory, with disastrous and costly results to the end users.

Again, just a thought.
 
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#4 ·
:cool: I'am as discussed with poor quality reproduction parts as anyone. There are some vendors (Inline Tube comes to mind) that buy/manufacture excellent quality (for the most part) pieces, but, man, I think some vendors just don't give a damn about quality (those are the ones who resell the returned parts). As long as the product sells, and the profits are made, nothing will change.

I recently purchased a reproduction P/S Return Line kit from a TC sponsor. The line was good quality, but the hose and the two clamps didn't look anything like the originals. Shipping/Handling cost more than the part, so I was bad and didn't return it (I got a better looking hose at NAPA). I should have returned the kit, and I should have bitched to high heaven. But it just seemed like a waste of my time to do so, do the vendors even listen to one customer? The last time I complained to PUI Interiors I got the brush off.

All I can suggest is that we all return the poor quality pieces and we all make every opportunity to bring our concerns to the vendors attention...
 
#5 ·
Keith, call a vendor, propose your idea and see what they say. I doubt one would let you mark it as defective. Where will they draw the line on one's interpretation of not fitting right? Or all customers being able to make a rational, intelligent decision? People who think panels are supposed to fall on will be grinding an X in ones that don't need it. I know what happens to reject panels. I doubt the ones I've returned were sold for scrap.

When you call them ask them to change all their return policies. And after consulting the vendor, the customer has the right to mark the panel and still receive a full refund. Your idea, you can be the first to call every vendor and see what percentage agrees with the new business practice.

You mentioned the manufacturer spotting a bad panel. That does not help the vendor on this dirt receiving them. Ever see panels come over? They are not boxed individually either. It's not important enough to produce panels that fit like GM panels did. And GM had the finances backing constant machine maintenace to produce products with consistency. Athough later stampings for panel replacement are sometines tired.
 
#6 ·
How about this, Lets all stick together and just not buy anything from suppliers for 2 months. I'm sure all of us could find something else to keep us busy for that long.

Maybe draft an e-mail that each member could send to his favorite supplier voicing our concerns on poor fitting parts.
 
#7 ·
dgwar said:
How about this, Lets all stick together and just not buy anything from suppliers for 2 months. I'm sure all of us could find something else to keep us busy for that long.

Maybe draft an e-mail that each member could send to his favorite supplier voicing our concerns on poor fitting parts.
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Never happen. People can't stick together to get important things done in this and other countries. A hobby is no different. How are you going to get everyone on this ball of dirt to stop buying parts? If you can do that, you can change the way the world's leaders run your life.

Vendors know parts fit poorly and customers are dissatisfied.
 
#8 ·
I have to tell you, I deal with AM parts every single day in late model collision. EVERY SINGLE DAY I am opening up boxes or packages of AM parts and the bodyman trial fits them and we take pictures of the poor fit and the part is returned and OEM is ordered. I do this every single day (did I mention that? :D).

I LOATH AM parts, I think the AM industry has sold the insurance industry a sock full of poop that the insurance industry bought hook line and sinker. I am disgusted with the thought that they think these parts are the "same", they are NOT, not one single one of them. There is NO AM part out there that I have ever seen that can't be told from the original if you know enough about the original. I don't care if it's a 1934 Ford Grille, a 1968 Camaro hood or a 2010 Toyota Camry bumper.

That being said, there IS a consumer for all those parts and even though it doesn't fit to MY standards I have never even entertained the thought of damaging it so others can't use it whos standards it is acceptable.

Also, there are a LOT of mistakes made in fitting panels or parts made by the guy doing the fitting! I have seen it over and over with one tech in particular. As an example this has happened a number of times. The car is hit on the front and the structure is out of square. He pulls the structure "straight" and then trial fits the hood and fender to find that they don't fit, I told him that the structure was the problem, and he refused to believe it. I am not going to throw a tram across checking the guys work so we return the AM parts. You guessed it, the OEM fender and hood came in and they fit exactly like the AM did! So cutting a notch in those parts would have been WRONG. They were likely sold to another shop where the tech knew what he was doing and they were bolted on and the car was delivered.

This is just one example, I have seen it over and over and over. Other than boycotting the parts (which I do anyway) there is nothing you can do. They have found that for some reason there are people who will accept these poor fitting parts and they still make the sale, if you want something nice go find OEM.

Brian
 
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#10 ·
It's the manufacturers' fault and problem to correct. It won't help if we the hobbiest punish the vendors. They're buying the best of what's available to sell to you. Just like us returning parts, it's inconvenient, time consuming and costly for a vendor to return the defective part. These parts are relatively inexpensive and just don't warrant the attention due to the niche nature of the sale - not like it's a pc or iphone that has widespread appeal where a bad review can kill their sale. In many cases, it's repro or nothing.

Also, not everyone is of the same skill set at installing repro. parts. There are some talented people who can make most things work. There are others of us that expect the part to fall in place. That's just not a practical expectation.

To me, and not to say I like it, it's just part of the cost of playing in this hobby.
 
Discussion starter · #11 ·
Yeah... good points all. Guess it was a wan hope that customer feedback could be reliable and well executed enough to be trustworthy.

Scott, that's not a bad idea - call a reputable vendor and ask about a return - tell them "I'd like to mark the part as defective". Wonder what they'd say? Expect you're right on the money - NO WAY.

I can't help wondering what's happening to those returns, though. What do you guys think they're doing with them? I don't think I could personally resell them, if I were in that business. Perhaps no one is?

re: Bruce's point about substandard "exact replacement" parts like hoses and stuff. Yep - me too. I've seen so much of this bogus exact language stuff that I pretty much gave up.

Maybe it's just me, but for some reason it seems like the most suspiciously substandard parts are the ones touted as "Exact replacement for x". You know - "exact replacement for 66 Chevelle rag joint kit" (It's not) "exact replacement authorized by GM emblem set" (they're not) etc.

Well, another beautiful idea murdered by a brutal set of facts.

:)

Keith
 
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#13 ·
We buy about $14-15K in AM parts a month so our supplier is pretty good at letting me send stuff back and he is also good at telling me up front this particular part he offers isn't going to work for me because he knows how picky we are.

I had an interesting discussion with the owner the other day about this subject and he told me he would demand OEM parts if his car got wrecked!

Brian
 
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#14 ·
Brian, how much of these poor fitting panels are simply because of a lack of knowledge on how to install parts?

Heck how many poor fitting panels come from OEM suppliers, GM and truck parts come to my mind pretty quickly.

Yes there are some very poor A/M parts out there, but I also know there are some very poor body men out there as well.
Both of my 70's wear A/M fenders, and I would challenge anyone to tell me that they are A/M based upon the fit and finish.

Over the years I've gotten heavily involved in the metal shaping community, gotten a few people who bring me rusty pos parts and want a new made because either no A/M is available or complain that it doesn't fit.
Then they turn around a complain more about the price my handmade 100% copy costs.
 
#15 ·
It's the manufacturers' fault and problem to correct. It won't help if we the hobbiest punish the vendors. They're buying the best of what's available to sell to you. Just like us returning parts, it's inconvenient, time consuming and costly for a vendor to return the defective part. These parts are relatively inexpensive and just don't warrant the attention due to the niche nature of the sale - not like it's a pc or iphone that has widespread appeal where a bad review can kill their sale. In many cases, it's repro or nothing.

Also, not everyone is of the same skill set at installing repro. parts. There are some talented people who can make most things work. There are others of us that expect the part to fall in place. That's just not a practical expectation.

To me, and not to say I like it, it's just part of the cost of playing in this hobby.
 
#16 ·
Alan F said:
It's the manufacturers' fault and problem to correct. It won't help if we the hobbiest punish the vendors. They're buying the best of what's available to sell to you. Just like us returning parts, it's inconvenient, time consuming and costly for a vendor to return the defective part. These parts are relatively inexpensive and just don't warrant the attention due to the niche nature of the sale - not like it's a pc or iphone that has widespread appeal where a bad review can kill their sale. In many cases, it's repro or nothing.
Click to expand...
And that is the cold hard fact, and I say thank goodness we have them! I loath the AM but thank goodness we have it or there would be many more of these cars hitting the wreckers instead of being put back on the road.

Brian
 
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#17 ·
sevt_chevelle said:
Brian, how much of these poor fitting panels are simply because of a lack of knowledge on how to install parts?

Heck how many poor fitting panels come from OEM suppliers, GM and truck parts come to my mind pretty quickly.

Yes there are some very poor A/M parts out there, but I also know there are some very poor body men out there as well.
Both of my 70's wear A/M fenders, and I would challenge anyone to tell me that they are A/M based upon the fit and finish.

Over the years I've gotten heavily involved in the metal shaping community, gotten a few people who bring me rusty pos parts and want a new made because either no A/M is available or complain that it doesn't fit.
Then they turn around a complain more about the price my handmade 100% copy costs.
Click to expand...
Eric, you don't give yourself enough credit, you have MAD skills and you MAKE things fit. We have people in every industry who stand out, and those who don't. Like every industry I have a idea that I think is pretty right on. 80% of people just "do their job", a decent job, 10% rise above that and 10% fall below. It seems those numbers are pretty accurate in most everything I have ever been exposed to. They exist, that is it work with it is how I see it. I would say at the very most as a rule about 20% of the AM parts are so close to original they are useable by most techs. I am being pretty liberal with that 20% because in my mind, my very picky anal mind it's more like 5%.

You did a masterful job fitting those fenders but anyone who really knows these cars can open the hood and look at the inner structure and by the spot welds or just the shape of those inner pieces know it is a repro part. You would have to do an awful lot to make up for that.

I have one tech at the shop who will make most everything fit then others can't make the OE fit, so go figure.

As far as OE and AM, there is a MONSTEROUS difference in quality across the board on these late model car parts, not even close.

Brian
 
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#18 ·
Now mind you Eric, I totally agree some AM Chevy pickup hoods and fenders fit better than OEM, but that is an exception to the rule.

Brian
 
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#19 ·
MARTINSR said:
And that is the cold hard fact, and I say thank goodness we have them! I loath the AM but thank goodness we have it or there would be many more of these cars hitting the wreckers instead of being put back on the road.

Brian
Click to expand...
i agree, my car was pretty rotted out i replaced almost every panel and to compare a full 1/4 panel from Dii(+/-$370) to a "NOS" piece ($1200+) it was a no brainer for me to go with repops. i will also argue that no one car is exactly the same as another car, the same goes for each individual panel. i personally had 3 sets of front fender extensions two sets were originals pulled from two cars and one set of repop's each individual piece fit my car totally differently and the two i chose (one original and one repop) for final assembly both needed to be worked to fit to my stardards.i guess my main point is that you could have multiple panels from one place and some may fit better than others. for me personally it was easier to modify the panels to make them fit well rather than try and exchange or return and buy somewhere else because either way you wil almost never have body panels (original, repop, or NOS) that just fall into place and fit perfactly

kevin
 
#20 ·
Of course the difference between an After Market hood for a 2010 Toyota Venza and a Reproduction hood for a 68 Camaro is quite far. If the 68 Camaro Repro hood was as nice as the AM Venza hood it would be just fine, and in fact probably better than the original was! But in my experience that isn't the case. The AM industry is trying to sell to the collision market that is repairing late model cars. These late model cars have brought the standards up pretty darn high. The fit and finish on a friggin Kia is a hundred miles, five hundred miles better than the fit and finish on your beloved 60's GM A bodys. There isn't a single car or truck made today that has as poor a fitting parts as my Skylark had from the factory, not even close, not in the same ball park or in the same city or state, todays cars are amazing in fit and finish. If you haven't worked on a 2000ish car you just can't believe the difference. You can get a car whacked in the side and replace a fender and door and rocker panel. Weld in your new rocker panel and paint the door and hood off the car bolting them on in minutes without so much as breaking a sweat. Just bolt them on, and they fit perfect. Put new rubbers in and the door opens and closes just like new with no pop and just a tiny pinky pull on the handle and shut it with one finger. Same goes for the window you install, no adjustment, just bolt the window in and roll it up, your done.

I did a little test one day and set up my camera on video and removed the door panel from a car, pulled the window out set it on the seat of the car then lifted it and stuck it back in the car re-installing the door panel everything working perfect and it took me something like right around two minutes flat. Can you imaging doing this on a 68 Chevelle? They are SOOOOO different, you can get a car you changed the weld in radiator support back from the paint shop at noon. It has two fenders off, the entire front end including headlights, bumper, radiator, a/c, both doors all pulled apart for a blend with the handles and mouldings and mirrors removed and have it back together by 4:30 to deliver it! They are SOOOOOOOO different.


That being said, the AM industry that is trying to fill that market isn't doing a very good job because those OE parts are so phenomenal. Some get very good for a "replacement" part if you wanted to save a few bucks (some times a LOT of bucks) and are willing to live with a less than perfect part. Be it an AM hood that doesn't have quite the crisp fold at the edge so the line down the side is't perfectly straight curving in at the ends closing the hood to fender gap a little, or that tail lamp that you can see the glue that holds the lense to the reflector/housing thru the lense and it's a different color than the original and it's edge is all lumpy where the original was perfectly straight. It's all good if the car owner has made the choice to save that money giving up some quality. But don't ask the body shop who is trying to provide the best repair possible to use that inferior part and pass it off as the same, be cause it isn't. And the "CAPA" certification helped but has became a joke as I have seen some serious junk that was refused before even trial fitting carrying the CAPA certification. Can you MAKE these parts fit, sure lots of them you can. But you don't have to with the OEM. You throw an OEM Toyota fender or hood on from across the room and they fit, done deal. The times in the estimating guides are set up to install new OEM parts not forcing some poor quality AM fit. And by the way not all these AM parts are made overseas. I was blown away the other day when I had an AM bumper for a Honda Odyssey was made in America!

So, the AM is pretty good, they are pretty good because they have competition! I can call the aftermarket to buy a fender where I toss the dice on whether it will fit or not or call the dealer where the near perfect one that I KNOW will fit. Because of this they have gotten pretty good in comparison.

The reproduction industry is much much different. They have no competition (other than each other) so you toss the dice for whom ever you buy it from knowing there is no sure thing like with the late model stuff at the dealer. They don't have that standard to live up to and they don't, they don't come close as a whole. They are like we have mentioned "better than nothing".

I had a friend open a package that came in the mail for his 65 Vette and say something very profound. I have probably said it here before, it was 25 years ago and it still rings true. He said..

"If they wanted to be honest, instead of saying in the catalog Exactly as original they would say Similar to original, can be used if nothing else is available."

These parts go everywhere from "useable" to not even usable, but HORRIBLE, like a hood my boss bought for his 67 Chevelle in the shop. Or the rad support we got not to long ago for a Mustang with the nuts welded on wrong side and the metal about half as thick.

They have no one to answer to but the consumer and the consumer is all too happy to buy this crap. I am sorry but I will do ANYTHING before I put AM parts on my vintage cars.

Brian
 
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