How much power is too much???

Qwiktripz1320 · Oct 27, 2011

Interesting to see everybodys idea of too much power. I will be the first to admit that the horsepower bug has taken street manners away from my hotrod. I used to enjoy cruisin the streets on a daily, but i enjoy blistering acceleration at the track far more. I had a 550HP pump gas 468 that was fun to cruise, and fried the tires at will with drag radials, but I was wanting more. When a valvetrain failure expired that motor, I started building a BDS blown mill. My car was torn apart at the time of my move to AZ about 6yrs ago. I was piecing together the blower setup, but was short heads, intake and a few other items. I knew a guy that was getting out of racing, and had an almost complete high compression nitrous setup. I knew getting the car to pass the AZ smog was out of the question either way(68 and back only exempt), so I figured why not go nuts. I gave him an offer on everything in his garage, and sold the blower. I am very happy with the performance of my current combo, but the big compression, solid roller, kryptonite valvespring, loose converter setup just aint up for the long cruises anymore. Now that I have relocated to NC, there is no smog. I sometimes regret not finishing the supercharger setup, as the boost could've been tailored with pulleys, but hindsight ya know? It would be nice to feed the itch in between races with a run to the grocery store or the ice cream shop. The line of Street/Strip is a fine one, and is definitley to each his own. $.02

Dan Orgill · Oct 27, 2011

dreis454 said:
My 454 is about 475/525 or so.....plenty for the street

x2

GRN69CHV said:
This is a philosophical question as to which each of us thinks is a practical limit of power for spirited driving. Answers will vary widely. Area where Vince and I live is populated fairly heavy. There are a few (very few) sections of open road where you can open it up and get to use the power. Other than a trip to the track, we're pretty much limited to a 1-2 blast. I kinda think an automatic car might afford a little lattitude in driveability on the street once the power gets higher.

I live in a very populated area as well, pretty much nowhere to get into it.

dreis454 said:
Just blowing the tires off & breaking stuff gets old. I'm having more fun with my mid/high 12 second 4 speed Chevelle on the street than i ever did with my 10 sec Nova.

I've come to the same mindset in regards to power for the street. I'm just sticking with my 396, and I've sold my block & crank that I had aquired for a 496. I was standing around with my engine builder a few weeks ago, and we were having this exact conversation. I don't use all the power available in my 396, why am I going to go through the expense of building 100 more cubes, only not to use it either?

I just had to take an HONEST look at my car & how I use it, which is the occasional cruise. Probably put on 500 miles this year. Putting out more $$$ for a bigger motor really is pointless, for me at least. I don't go to cruise nights, car shows or the track. Why was I going to spend all that extra money? For bragging rights? I have no one to brag to!:noway:

dreis454 · Oct 27, 2011

Dan Orgill said:
x2

I live in a very populated area as well, pretty much nowhere to get into it.

I've come to the same mindset in regards to power for the street.
I just had to take an HONEST look at my car & how I use it, which is the occasional cruise. Probably put on 500 miles this year.

Great Minds think alike.:thumbsup:

OLDED · Oct 27, 2011

You Know You Have Too Much Horsepower When:

1. The emissions test guy starts laughing as soon as you pull onto the rollers.

2. You can't drive your car in the rain.

3. Your "significant other" is afraid to drive your car.

4. You are afraid to drive your car.

5. You spend more on tires than on food.

6. You spend more on car insurance than on house payments.

7. You look in a state police car and see a picture of your car taped to the dash.

8. You throw your underwear in the garbage rather than the hamper.

9. You have to go to the track to buy gas.

10. Your mechanic names the new wing of his shop after you.

11. Jacques Villeneuve and Michael Schumacher wave you by.

12. You can make the Kessel Run in less than 12 parsecs.

13. You're tempted to wear your fire suit just to drive to the office.

14. Red signal lights shift to green as you're approaching then shift back to red as you're receding.

15. You arrive somewhere before you left.

16. You get pulled over for doing 155 in a 35 but the cops will let you go if "they can look under the hood."

17. You remove the $2000 stereo system to save 6 lb. of weight.

18. You are not allowed to run in the Silver State Challenge.

19. You get an anonymous phone call asking if you are interested in being in the Cannonball Run.

20. Your face looks like you are riding a NASA centrifuge when you drive the car.

The Money Pit · Oct 27, 2011

I know this is all individual opinion based on driving style on the street. My Vette with the 406 used to do the hula in second gear after the shift and then nailing the throttle,....Thsi was running P295 50 15 street tires. I decided to go to MT 295 55 15 drag radials. The hula is no longer an issue, and overall drivability is pretty good.

My 406 I guess puts down about 500 horsepower, gets 11 mpg, and in my opinion is a great muscle car engine,...complete with the fender shaking idle.

Works for me.

Qwiktripz1320 · Oct 27, 2011

LOL^^^ Should make this into a poster.

GRUMPYVETTE · Oct 27, 2011

one of my best memory,s involving a bit of hp,
thats easy, I had built a 1968 vette, in the mid/late 1970s with a full roll cage, a dana 60 rear and 4.11 rear gears and a m21, and a 13.7:1 cpr 496 bbc engine with crower injectors at the time.
I wanted to go to the track, to play with the car, and my buddy wanted to go also, so Id asked a buddy with a pick-up truck to transport my slicks, floor jack, tools etc. and follow me, as I carefully cruised in top gear at about 45mph to the track, on street tires,about 1/2 way to the track a yellow big block 454 1970 chevelle pulls up next to me , starts doing the lets run sucker dance, reving and lunging, letting off etc., I had no desire to street race but there was no one else around, it was a long strait highway, and I was only 26, so when he just let off the forth time... I knew Id have no traction, so I eased into the throttle just enough to start the car to accelerate and waited till he started to pass...........at about 60mph, as he pulled even I nailed it, the rear street tires turned to smoke and that continued, up to about 100mph plus, I lifted at 130mph, with the chevelle well to the rear....he followed me to the track, we talked and he could not get over the smoke boiling from the tires and LOOOOONNNNNGGG black highway stripes.......silly but destroying street tires ...that made me feel good, even thou it was no trick to destroy street tires with that corvette.
It ran consistent 10.25/137mph times and traction was a problem even with slicks, a tubed rear and a 4 link.
you eventually develop a "FEEL " for the car and understand that there lots of things you can,t get away with driving like a fool on,like wet roads and gravel , driving a car with that kind of power means you have to exercise a great deal of judgement and restraint, and you get that from experience , when you screw up, but in my case I got tired of driving a car that almost always seemed to attract a police tail after a few minutes even if I drove it like I had a gallon of nitroglycerine on the passenger seat, injector stacks,sticking out of a corvette hood and a loud rhythmic rumble from the exhaust seems to attract morons and cops like a magnet

427L88 · Oct 27, 2011

Well, truth is I have always wanted, and never yet had, a car that would smoke them at 60 mph. But I dont covet much these days.

69-CHVL · Oct 27, 2011

Just for the record, I have 90/10 shocks on the front, no front sway bar, lift bars in the rear. Yeah, the tires I have (BFG radial T/A's) are the issue, but I also have a set of Hoosier DR's which do hook once the car gets going, but I dont like driving around on DR's - they just feel weird.

I did like my 454HO 425/500ftlbs and the M20 along with a 3.31 rear. It would just about boil the tires in 1st, but would mostly hook and go. So really, that motor "felt" faster around town than does my 502 and the 3.90's. As Joe mentioned, there really isnt much in the way of open roads around here. My car starts to hook in 3rd and by then its over.

Interesting debate.

69-CHVL · Oct 27, 2011

67EC said:
Thats why you should do a turbo engine, then you can run a cheapo boost controller and dial whatever hp you want, and you can run some 3.08 gears. We gotta get together and I can take you for a ride in my RX7 so you can have a taste of the dark side! With some tall gears and third or fourth gear, it feels like a giant rubber band is pulling you along at 4000rpm instead of bouncing it off the rev limiter going 10mph!

This is the smart guy in the room

bracketchev1221 · Oct 27, 2011

69-CHVL said:
I did like my 454HO 425/500ftlbs and the M20 along with a 3.31 rear. It would just about boil the tires in 1st, but would mostly hook and go. So really, that motor "felt" faster around town than does my 502 and the 3.90's. As Joe mentioned, there really isnt much in the way of open roads around here. My car starts to hook in 3rd and by then its over.

Interesting debate.

And this was exactly my point, if you jump on it from a roll or whatever and it goes nowhere, how fast is it really? When a 14 second mustang can walk away from you, you become part of the shoulda woulda and coulda crowd. If only I had the slicks, if only I did this, etc. I don't want a car that I have to finesse. That is just a car that you can't use effectively.

540Hotrod · Oct 27, 2011

Dan Orgill said:
I just had to take an HONEST look at my car & how I use it, which is the occasional cruise. Probably put on 500 miles this year. Putting out more $$$ for a bigger motor really is pointless, for me at least. I don't go to cruise nights, car shows or the track. Why was I going to spend all that extra money? For bragging rights? I have no one to brag to!:noway:

Heck..if I was only going to drive 500 miles per year...I'd build a 15.0 compression crazy motor. Why not?

I put 5000 miles per year on mine usually. In fact we're going on a road trip in 2 weeks with it that will put more than 500 on it. I've made cross country 2000-2500 mile trips with it and it's no big deal. My wife can drive it just fine. I routinely put other folks behind the wheel and they are amazed at how *friendly* a 9 sec motor can be these days. Sure it goes nuts and smokes tires forever...I just use half throttle to keep them burning if I want to. If you go WFO it's going to be bouncing into the stratosphere on RPM in a nanosecond.

But interestingly....if done right...my Soft Lok slipper clutch allows me to get moving pretty well from a roll. It will slip just enough to not light up the tires as bad and then you can roll into it. Love surprising those Viper and new Vette dudes!

I like having insane power that is tuned to drive well on the street. When I smack my foot in it during the time I do make it to the track with slicks...it's ready to rock and show well. I'd hate to take 200+ HP out of it (makes 871HP now) because I doubt it would drive that much differently and would be a lot slower.

In fact the winter project is going to add a LOT more power!!

Probably even drive better too!

I'm a little worried about that 396 that we're happy with? I mean the average new V6 is putting out more HP to the wheels than it might be?:sad:

Ok...just kidding with you...don't get mad!:beers:

JIM

camaroman7d · Oct 27, 2011

Well I think he answered his own question. He's running regular BFG's, it doesn't take a bunch of power to make those feel dangerous. Try a set of the M/T Drag Radials and you too much power issue should be gone. I have never tried the Hoosiers, so I don't know what the "weird feeling" you have is about. You could even step up to a set of American Racers (formerly McCreary) tires and that will greatly reduce your traction issue.

I went through the same thing on my last Camaro, the car ran 11.90's N/A on McCreary's, on the street I would bolt on my extra set of rims with regular radials (295/50's), the car was dangerous on the street with those and after almost losing it a few times I got rid of the regular radials, those tire are not meant for car with any decent kind of power. I ran McCreary's full time (drag radials weren't really out yet).

My current car makes way more power, I drive it quite a bit and it is absolutely manageable on the street. 325/50/15 M/T Drag Radials. Changing to better rear shocks made it even easier to drive on the street. I have to try to break them loose.

No tire or suspension is going to dead hook from a stop on a public road, but there is no reason you can't manage to keep the car safe with the right suspension and tires.

Southern72 · Oct 27, 2011

Start tinkering with suspension and leave the motor alone. My SBC in a full weight car ET's faster than your 600hp. That wasn't meant to be knocking your car. It means when you start to put the power to the ground you will be looking for more power. I don't know how much interstate driving you do but THROW MORE GEAR AT IT AND THE TIRE SPIN WILL BE LESS. It often works opposite of what you think. With the steep gears when you break the tires loose the wheel speed comes up so fast the tire can't recover.

540Hotrod · Oct 27, 2011

I guess I better add a little more to all of this.

I will absolutely say that my car was a heck of a lot of fun with the old 427 in it. It ran 11.20's@123...but I had to baby it out of the hole to not scatter Vette IRS parts. I still have that engine and know that with my current drivetrain it could hit high 10's easily...all with some Merlin oval port iron heads and a Comp 288 street roller that held 14" of vacuum.

The same engine was in my old Camaro and ran mid 11's@118 with mildly ported GM oval ports and a flat tappet. Drove it all across the US going to events and racing it. Later it had a big roller in it with some N20 and ran high 9's on pump gas in that car.

There's a point where it takes exponential effort to gain a little bit on a timeslip and everyone is right...on the street and especially with street tires you can't tell much difference in the first few gears between a high 10 sec car and a high 9 sec car. Once it starts pulling in the upper speed ranges is when you notice it. As mentioned....you can't always find places to do that.

But since these things are toys...it's fun to be able to do that super acceleration when you do get a chance!

I have a tendency to get *scope creep* as I keep a car longer and longer. Each year you come up with something to make it better or faster..and it easily gets out of hand!

JIM

crazydavey · Oct 27, 2011

Great topic Vince and everyone has good thoughts to each side. Some guys here have had some crazy fast cars and I can see why street manners might not be ideal.

Being a child of the 60's in SoCal street performance was really sort of an art form. Having the most power didn't always work if a guy didn't know what he was doing. That said if you did have the power learning how to use it made all the difference.

As some have said it depends a lot on the car. My wife's car for example is a big cushy power everything 4000 lb boat. She put it in drive last year at the last PINKS and ran a 11.66 with it short shifting at 4800. If she would let me play with it there's another half second there so it has plenty of power. You can drive it anywhere and it rides like a Caddy.

She has MT DR's (275x60x15) and they are a solid tire that ride totally normal. From a roll it will break them loose for a bit and then it hooks up and it's on its way. I guess my point is it's not much different than running at the track, it's all setup and combo. Whatever power you have if you set it up to take advantage of it there is a heck of a lot of fun.

So there is only too much power if you're not committed to using it, that might mean some compromises. If you do not want to make certain compromises then gauge the power accordingly....

Dave Birdwell · Oct 27, 2011

Mark Donohue once said... "unless you can come out of a corner and spin the tires all the way to the next corner, you don't have enough power.... "

ss3964spd · Oct 27, 2011

Assuming you have enough travel in the linkage I wonder if slowing down the throttle opening rate - moving the rod/cable from the pedal to a point farther away from the primary throttle shaft, would make it easier to meter small throttle openings - making the thing easier to drive on the street.

68Beau · Oct 27, 2011

Yup! Thought I had tons of power with my BFG's 255/60/15, like driving on ice in 1st and 2nd
Put on a set of M/T ET streets same size an could hardly spin them at all!
Now I'm going 496

... It never ends!!!

Notalent · Oct 27, 2011

Im enjoying my 496 Stroker much more than my 400HP 350 I had in it...It doesnt sound mean, it drives nicely on highways, very streetable. Exactly what I wanted...im not a street racer, so I dont blow the tires off at the signals, however I can blow them off at 60mph if I wanted to. I have more fun from a 45-60mph roll getting on the freeways with these guys that buy 60K+ cars that get smoked by me. When I really want to feel the power on the road, I throttle into it. When I finally get to the track....im sure that will just be icing on the cake! Plus, I love the attention

How much power is too much???

Qwiktripz1320

Dan Orgill

dreis454

OLDED

The Money Pit

Qwiktripz1320

GRUMPYVETTE

427L88

69-CHVL

69-CHVL

bracketchev1221

540Hotrod

camaroman7d

Southern72

540Hotrod

crazydavey

Dave Birdwell

ss3964spd

68Beau

Notalent

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