BBC Retrofit cam question

Lead_Sled · Feb 13, 2011

Couple of questions about the conversion in regards to the Retrofit Cam swap.

I've been reading alot about a locking plate, cam buttons, and strong timing covers. Most companies only advertising needing a cam button, but what about a locking plate? I've also read that the nylon button is more preferred than a torrington button. And I see lots of people using the cast aluminum timing cover.

I found that Cloyes 9-231 is an aluminum timing cover with a cam button built in, but it seems to be a torrington button. If used, would I still need a locking plate?

It seems that the Cloyes timing cover would be easier to adjust for cam play.

What do the experts say in this matter?

dreis454 · Feb 13, 2011

I recently converted my 1972 454 to a hydraulic roller setup. THIS is the easiest way to to do it.
Get the cam you pick out for a GEN 6 engine.
The end of the cam will be sized to accept a RETAINING PLATE.
You will need to use a GEN 6 timing set -> http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NAL-12371053/ this set includes the retaining plate as well as all the bolts needed to retain the cam & cam gear.
YES your BB will already have threaded holes for this install unless you have a very early block.
Now you will be able to use a stock cover & not worry about a 'thrust button'.

A picture of my 454 is in post #26 of this thread> http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=320462&page=2

BossHogg69 · Feb 13, 2011

I have the 9-231 on my BB along with the 9-3110A timing set. The instructions just note using locktite on the cam bolts, since you can use a locking plate with the Hex-A-Just timing set.

Also, Cloyes makes an adjustable timing set for the GEN VI, its 9-3149A and they are the ones that manufacture the GM set listed above.

Lead_Sled · Feb 13, 2011

Dan, I see where you're using a single roller timing set. I read the notes that say it's not supposed to be used above 6500 rpm. I don't think I'll be anywhere close to that. And Adam sent a part number for an adjustable timing set for a single roller setup. Are you guys just satisfied with the single roller or is there something about that double roller that will not work? I can't see where there would be much of a difference, but you just never know.

I agree that the retaining plate from the 96+ does look alot cleaner than having to shim or trim a cam button in order for it to work. Not saying that it wouldn't work, because I've read where lots of people have run them and no problems. With the torrington button, I see where people express concerns about the bearings falling out and ending up somewhere in the engine.

I'm also contemplating whether or not I'll need adjustable timing. Hmmmmm.....

dreis454 · Feb 13, 2011

The ZZ502 comes with that set that I posted so I think it will be fine....& as stated above it IS a Cloyes piece so its well made. I have no concerns with the single roller chain.
Even the rpm limit is no worry as I will never rev it above 5800.

I'm not sure if there is even a double roller chain made for the GEN6.

Lead_Sled · Feb 13, 2011

The camshaft that I chose is only up to 5800 RPM as well, so I will not see the max for the single roller setup. Was just a question.

Do you find it to be a problem not being able to adjust your timing at the camshaft? My application is not a race application, but it just makes me wonder if I'm being limited not being able to adjust timing if needed.

Here are the ones I found with a Double Roller. Rather pricey for the Edelbrock, but they're available.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-7816/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G6617-B/

Lead_Sled · Feb 13, 2011

I checked the block and I do have these holes to the left and to the right of the camshaft slot. Looks like this should be pretty easy.

dreis454 · Feb 13, 2011

Mine is a street car that will likely never see the track so I am not hunting for every HP,so the one keyway is fine with me.
The double rollers set look great but I think they may be overkill for MY application.

The GEN6 swap is VERY easy & clean....I HIGHLY recommend it.

BossHogg69 · Feb 13, 2011

Lead_Sled said:
Here are the ones I found with a Double Roller. Rather pricey for the Edelbrock, but they're available.

Those E'brocks are Cloyes pieces as well... The Cloyes 'True Roller' 1/2" pitch single roller sets use a super stout chain (#9-192) that is at least as strong as the 3/8 double roller - these are the 9-3149A (the 'A' is for Hex-A-Just) and 9-3649x3 (x3 is 3 keyway crank sprocket). The 9-3649x3 is a good upgrade from the GM set if you don't need the fancy adjustable cam sprocket. Both of these use heat treated billet steel sprockets, and I wouldn't worry one bit about spinning these up to or past 6500rpm. I will say that the Cloyes chains will be much tighter than the GM set listed in the 2nd post, its made to GM's specs and the Cloyes sets are 'hand matched' for cam to crank center distance and are usually very tight when they are installed.

The Cloyes part numbers for the double rollers for Gen VI are 9-3170A (hex a just) and 9-3170x3 (regular 3 keyway crank spkt).

I will say that I speak from experience on the chains, I worked at Cloyes as the HP Products manager, so I've seen all the tests in regard to these chains and Edelbrock was one of my accounts, and most of the timing products (e.i. the 'Performer' Link) they carry are comparable to Cloyes 'Street True' line, which is their mid-level stuff. Hope this helps.

692envy · Feb 13, 2011

I'm in the process of building a 489 with a Mark IV block with a step nose cam and am using a Romac Rollmaster timing chain set that I got from Chris Straub. It is a very nice piece.

Lead_Sled · Feb 13, 2011

I find it very tempting to purchase a double roller. Then again, I start thinking about with buying something like a double roller from Cloyes / Edelbrock, I'd need to buy the retainer, which seems like I can't find it. On top of that, the $140 xtra dollar expense, knowing the same roller chain is being used on the ZZ502 pushing over 500hp. The only thing that makes me slightly concerned is that I should be in the 600hp range. With that said, I've never pushed any of my engines of 5000 rpm, so that gives me a little comfort. But again, who knows if that wild hair will ever creep up to actually try it out to it's maximum.

The little angel is telling me to be modest and sparing, but the little devil is saying go for the double roller and don't worry about the extras!!!!

692envy · Feb 13, 2011

The retainer you need is GM part #10168501 you can get from your local dealer or Summit racing for $14 http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NAL-10168501/ It fits small blocks too which sometimes throws people off.

69-CHVL · Feb 13, 2011

Running the GMPP single chain kit/retainer and after 4K miles and 6500 rpms+, still tight as ever. For 40.00, dont go crazy.

dreis454 · Feb 14, 2011

BossHogg69 said:
Those E'brocks are Cloyes pieces as well... The Cloyes 'True Roller' 1/2" pitch single roller sets use a super stout chain (#9-192) that is at least as strong as the 3/8 double roller - these are the 9-3149A (the 'A' is for Hex-A-Just) and 9-3649x3 (x3 is 3 keyway crank sprocket). The 9-3649x3 is a good upgrade from the GM set if you don't need the fancy adjustable cam sprocket. Both of these use heat treated billet steel sprockets, and I wouldn't worry one bit about spinning these up to or past 6500rpm. I will say that the Cloyes chains will be much tighter than the GM set listed in the 2nd post, its made to GM's specs and the Cloyes sets are 'hand matched' for cam to crank center distance and are usually very tight when they are installed.

The Cloyes part numbers for the double rollers for Gen VI are 9-3170A (hex a just) and 9-3170x3 (regular 3 keyway crank spkt).

I will say that I speak from experience on the chains, I worked at Cloyes as the HP Products manager, so I've seen all the tests in regard to these chains and Edelbrock was one of my accounts, and most of the timing products (e.i. the 'Performer' Link) they carry are comparable to Cloyes 'Street True' line, which is their mid-level stuff. Hope this helps.

Thank you Adam for that excellent info!:thumbsup:

superstock · Feb 14, 2011

If you are concerned about changing cam timing just install the cam degree button of your choice on the cam gear .

Lead_Sled · Feb 14, 2011

Learn somthing new everyday!!!!

BossHogg69 · Feb 14, 2011

dreis454 said:
Thank you Adam for that excellent info!:thumbsup:

You are very welcome - I'm just glad I found a topic I could contribute to

superstock said:
If you are concerned about changing cam timing just install the cam degree button of your choice on the cam gear .

The Hex-A-Just sets do this, but with one single adjustable bushing in the cam sprocket for +/- 6 degrees.

Gerald, honestly, if I were you doing this conversion, and you wanted something that would give you some headroom for future upgrades, the 9-3649X3 single roller set would be more than enough to satisfy WELL upwards of the 600hp you mentioned earlier. Like Vince said, the stock style GM set is probably enough too, but in my mind, it never hurts to have a little 'insurance'.

If not doing the conversion, like I said earlier, I went the 9-231 Timing cover/9-3110A timing set route on my 468 BBC as the roller button on the timing cover is fully rebuildable and would give you many years of service before needing any attention. The endplay on that timing cover is very easy to set and any replacement parts you may ever need are readily available. Of course, you can use that cover with any Mark IV timing set of your choice. There are many ways to skin this cat, its pretty much up to you on what you want to do and how much you wanna spend.

Lead_Sled · Feb 14, 2011

Adam,

I greatly appreciate your 1st hand knowledge on these timing sets. And your contribution I'm sure is greatly appreciated by anyone who read this topic. I'm still contemplating, but thanks for the options.

Lead_Sled · Feb 14, 2011

One more question question. Even with the Gen VI step nose camshaft and timing set, you guys are still running the retrofit lifters correct? I already have my lifters and didn't want to have to purchase a new set because I've decided to go with the Gen VI setup.

Malibu ss 64 · Feb 14, 2011

Yes, you use retrofit lifters with gen 6 camshaft in older mark IV and gen 5 blocks.

Marcus

BBC Retrofit cam question

Lead_Sled

dreis454

BossHogg69

Lead_Sled

dreis454

Lead_Sled

Lead_Sled

dreis454

BossHogg69

692envy

Lead_Sled

692envy

69-CHVL

dreis454

superstock

Lead_Sled

BossHogg69

Lead_Sled

Lead_Sled

Malibu ss 64

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