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kjett

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Discussion starter · #1 · (Edited)
Well, we are finally to the point in the build where it's time to pick a cam for the new pump gas 555 for my 66. I'm actually working with Chris Straub and Tom Vigue on the cam selection, but I would also like to hear input from the folks here as there are a lot of great running BBCs here. Below is a recap of the build:

Chevrolet bowtie block 4.560" bore
Lunati pro mod rods +.400"
Callies dragonslayer crank 4.25"
Custom Diamond pistons, .043 top, standard second and oil, lateral gas porting, tops and skirts coated (11:1 compression ratio)
Total Seal ring set with gapless top
Lifter bores bushed for a .937" lifter
Jesel solid body .937" roller lifters
Brodix BB3 Extra Oval heads ~360cc runner, 465CFM good port, 458CFM bad port, 2.35" titanium intake and 1.85" exhaust
Jesel competition shaft rockers 1.75:1 intake and exhaust
Stefs aluminum oil pan with windage tray
Melling pump
Callico coated bearings
Hogan sheet metal intake
Accufab 1,600 CFM monoblade throttle body
Precision 55lb/hr injectors (these may be right on the verge of being too small)
Big Stuff III efi
MSD all-in-one dizzy (crank trigger and cam position sensor)
Lemons headers stepped from 2-1/8" to 2-1/4" w/4" collector
Dr. Gas 3.5" x-pipe
Magnaflow large case mufflers 3.5" in/out with turn downs (will add tail pipes later)
G-force 6 speed manual transmission 2.98, 1.99, 1.35, 1:1, .79, .62
Advanced Clutches 10.5" slipper clutch
12-bolt rear with true-trac, Moser 33 spine axles, c-clip eliminators, 5/8" studs, Mark Williams main bearing caps, LPW cover
Mark Williams driveshaft with 1350 joints
28" rear tire

This car will be 75% street and 25% strip. I'm not looking for a big dyno number. The goal is to have the car streetable enough that I could jump in and take a 3-4 hour road trip, but still have it run pretty well at the strip. Any input is appreciated. Straub is going to spec two cams for the engine. One cam will be targetted at maximum performance and the second targetted at strong performance with better street manners. I will post Chris's recommendations after I get them (later today or tomorrow). Will be curious to see what you folks have to say :)

Thanks!

P.S. Looking to make peak power at or very close to 7,000 rpms. With a 28" tire and manual tranny that would put the trap speed at ~142mph. I'm hopeful that the engine can make the power to attain this speed in the 1/4. Don't know the weight of the car presently, but when I used to race with the 454/auto the car weighed 3,735-3,750 with driver with and without tail pipes. I don't have a cage in the car right now, I removed the 6pt roll bar when I did the frame off restoration. I'm planning on putting a roll bar or 10pt cage in the car. I'm also running power steering, hydroboost brakes, there is lots of sound deadener and some extra stereo gear (speakers and amps) in the car now that weren't in it when I raced it all the time. I'm actually guessing the new race weight with driver will be in the 3,850lbs range.
 
#3 ·
I realy like this build , I see that you are using a solid roller cam and 11.1 compression . I know this is a cam thred but if you dont mind can you post some pics of what your doing like your fuel injection set up what that intells and placement of wiring . your oil pan what if any mods to crossmember ?

I gave up a little power in my build so I can drive it on the street and so the valve train would live longer
intake 281 exaust 292
intake 440 exaust 444
intake 1.75 exaust 175
4.600 bore 4.375 stroke
4/7SWAP
bb-3XTRA O CNC 366CC/119CC
12.5 COMPRESSION
 
#4 ·
That is going to be a killer street engine, 142 mph should be doable....maybe 145
 
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#5 ·
that's quite a build Kenny, well you adopt me???

You're in very good hands with Chris...Dave
 
Discussion starter · #6 ·
JOHN WILSON said:
Ken, still a standard bbc cam journal?
Click to expand...

Yes, John. Standard cam journal. Think I should have stepped it up to the 55mm core?
fowl69 said:
I realy like this build , I see that you are using a solid roller cam and 11.1 compression . I know this is a cam thred but if you dont mind can you post some pics of what your doing like your fuel injection set up what that intells and placement of wiring . your oil pan what if any mods to crossmember ?

I gave up a little power in my build so I can drive it on the street and so the valve train would live longer
intake 281 exaust 292
intake 440 exaust 444
intake 1.75 exaust 175
4.600 bore 4.375 stroke
4/7SWAP
bb-3XTRA O CNC 366CC/119CC
12.5 COMPRESSION
Click to expand...
Thanks, Fowl. I'm hoping this will turn out to be a good combination. I don't have the intake back from Hogan yet. I sent the intake back to them to have it modified for the new heads. I can't say enough good things about Tim Hogan. He's a really standup guy with great customer service. He ended up building me a completely new intake and taking my old one in on trade. He didn't have to do that, but that's just how he is.

As for the wiring, it's really not that bad. I'm running the BS3 EFI controller. It comes with all the wiring. There is a big harness that has the connectors for the injectors, idle air controller (IAC), manifold absolute pressure (MAP), cam sensor, crank trigger, water temp sensor, air temp sensor and throttle position sensor (TPS). It also has a dedicated 12v/ground harness that is connected right to the battery. All of those connections are firewall "forward." There are a few other connections to the box that are wired inside the car including a 12v ignition source, tach wiring, two-step, etc... The EFI box also runs the fuel pump. I'm running an Aeromotive A1000 in-tank pump.

Just let me know what you would like to see and I'll take pictures and post them.
69 Ratt Vette said:
That is going to be a killer street engine, 142 mph should be doable....maybe 145
Click to expand...
Thanks, John. I hope you're right :)

crazydavey said:
that's quite a build Kenny, well you adopt me???

You're in very good hands with Chris...Dave
Click to expand...
Lol, Davey. Chris is good people. I'm sure we'll get this thing figured out.
 
Discussion starter · #7 ·
C'mon guys. I know this post isn't that old, but 60+ views and nobody has a recommendation :)

There are a few different ways to approach camming this (or any other performance) engine:

Lot's of lift with less duration (think .900+ lift with .050 duration around 270-280 degrees, or
Less lift with more duration (think .750-.800 lift with .050 duration 280-300 degrees

What are the pros and cons of each approach? I've tried to pay attention to the valve train knowing that I'm trying to have my cake and eat it too with a true street/strip application.

What about LSA? Should we go tighter or wider? Which would be better for the EFI/stick, shift recovery, etc...?

Don't be shy. There is no right or wrong answer here. ALL input is appreciated :)
 
#8 ·
kjett said:
Yes, John. Standard cam journal. Think I should have stepped it up to the 55mm core?
Click to expand...
kjett said:
There are a few different ways to approach camming this (or any other performance) engine:

Lot's of lift with less duration (think .900+ lift with .050 duration around 270-280 degrees, or
Less lift with more duration (think .750-.800 lift with .050 duration 280-300 degrees
Click to expand...
Ken, going to the 55mm core certainly has it's advantages. However, considering you're only looking for pk hp at 7000, the bbc core will certainly accommodate the lobes you'll need. Going with the Ti valves and lower springs pressures that Tom can achieve will make the std core all the more sufficient.

As far as .900" lift with a 1.75 rocker......I don't see Chris or Tom advising a .515" lobe on a bbc core for this build. Most likely a .475-.490 lobe on the intake @ low 260's, .460-.470 on the exhaust side @mid-upper 270's. 109-110lsa. Shift around 7800.
 
#9 ·
Ken, first let me say that I would never claim to know more nor even close to as much about cams as guys like Chris Straub, or Harold Brookshire ("UDHAROLD") or even as much as some of the heavy hitters who have already chimed in here on this thread. But since you're asking for opinions, I kinda like this cam here, and because you've pointed out that you want this car to be mostly street driven, that is another reason for my suggestion, since I know that those heads will be fine with more cam than this.... (ofcourse, this goes with the assumption that you want a solid roller cam)....BTW, this has always been one of Lunati's cams that they advertise as being "easy on valvetrain parts" ("easy" being a relative term used for competition type camshafts like this one)...

Image
 
#10 ·
Since you have such good heads i'd take about 10* duration off what fowl 69 is going to use. Maybe something along the lines of .750 gross lift. They almost always loose .050 lift from lash and BBC geometry losses, leaving you with about .700 net lift. I'm sure Tom can guide you in the right direction. If you replace the cage with a chrome moly one you should be able to keep the weight in the under 3750 lb. range.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Ken, although I realize that my suggestion in post #9 is an example of something more conservative than you stated that you're looking to go, in case this might be of help to you with your camshaft decision, I want to add that the cam card I posted is for the cam that I have in my 632 CID pump gas engine. While I don't have any ET's with that car yet, nor any seat time to speak of, FWIW, the dyno numbers for that cam in that engine had the HP peak (just a hair over 800) at only 5,900 RPM, and the torque peak (775 ft/lbs) at 4,000 RPM. Again, for comparison, you have 67 CID less, but better cylinder heads with bigger port volumes (my intake ports are 350cc, and they're mediocre heads at that,and without any posting work done either).

My guess is that you also probably have a better flowing intake manifold too with that EFI set-up. So with the smaller displacementm yet bigger/better cylinder heads, my guess is that a cam with those specs like the one I have might have your engine's peak power in the 6,500 RPM neighborhood (which I know is slightly less than you mentioned as being your goal) but with the better heads, the power would likely hang on more to a higher RPM.

EDIT: BTW, if it matters, the static CR in my set-up is 10.5:1 I have flat top Mahle pistons, the chambers are 119cc, valves are 2.30"/1.88" and the piston crowns are about .005" in the hole and have Total Seal gapless rings. It uses the 6.7" H-beam rods. I hope this comparo might help in some way with your decision.
 
#12 ·
Am I correct in my thinking that the EFI will allow for a cam that would be a little more radical compared to a carb as far as manners on the street.
 
#13 ·
kjett said:
C'mon guys. I know this post isn't that old, but 60+ views and nobody has a recommendation :)

There are a few different ways to approach camming this (or any other performance) engine:

Lot's of lift with less duration (think .900+ lift with .050 duration around 270-280 degrees, or
Less lift with more duration (think .750-.800 lift with .050 duration 280-300 degrees

What are the pros and cons of each approach? I've tried to pay attention to the valve train knowing that I'm trying to have my cake and eat it too with a true street/strip application.

What about LSA? Should we go tighter or wider? Which would be better for the EFI/stick, shift recovery, etc...?

Don't be shy. There is no right or wrong answer here. ALL input is appreciated :)
Click to expand...
No disrespect but those are some serious parts for a 75% street car. With power peak around 7000 and to live nicely on 3-4 hour trips I think your in good hands with the cam guys. I would only take the advice of a cam designer/cam company on getting specs with your combo unless someone actually has real world proven experience on a comparison. I know I would be just guessing and would be totally wrong. I do not want to make a suggestions unless I have real world experience. I used Chris on my build an could not be happier. Runs under 10 on pump gas 496.

Sounds like an awesome build. Please keep everyone informed on your results.
 
#14 ·
If you haven't already bought 'em, I'd run T&D instead of Jesel rockers. Call Tracy at Sunset, (806) 747-2700, he can set you up at the best price you'll find and probably give you some injection advice, he's got a lot of experience with it.
Sorry, don't have a cam recommendation. Looks like a race engine to me - with exception of compression, that's a similar setup to what a lot of trailered 8 - 9 second cars are running. Top shelf parts, should be both powerful and reliable.
 
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Discussion starter · #15 ·
JOHN WILSON said:
Ken, going to the 55mm core certainly has it's advantages. However, considering you're only looking for pk hp at 7000, the bbc core will certainly accommodate the lobes you'll need. Going with the Ti valves and lower springs pressures that Tom can achieve will make the std core all the more sufficient.

As far as .900" lift with a 1.75 rocker......I don't see Chris or Tom advising a .515" lobe on a bbc core for this build. Most likely a .475-.490 lobe on the intake @ low 260's, .460-.470 on the exhaust side @mid-upper 270's. 109-110lsa. Shift around 7800.
Click to expand...
Interesting, John. Those numbers are similar to what I had in mind, although I was thinking a little more lift.

BillyGman said:
Ken, first let me say that I would never claim to know more nor even close to as much about cams as guys like Chris Straub, or Harold Brookshire ("UDHAROLD") or even as much as some of the heavy hitters who have already chimed in here on this thread. But since you're asking for opinions, I kinda like this cam here, and because you've pointed out that you want this car to be mostly street driven, that is another reason for my suggestion, since I know that those heads will be fine with more cam than this.... (ofcourse, this goes with the assumption that you want a solid roller cam)....BTW, this has always been one of Lunati's cams that they advertise as being "easy on valvetrain parts" ("easy" being a relative term used for competition type camshafts like this one)...

Image
Click to expand...
Thanks for the info, Billy. I looked at that cam profile. It looks pretty nice, but it's going to take a little more cam than that for me to fully utilize these heads and make the sort of power I'm hoping for.
Harold Sutton said:
Since you have such good heads i'd take about 10* duration off what fowl 69 is going to use. Maybe something along the lines of .750 gross lift. They almost always loose .050 lift from lash and BBC geometry losses, leaving you with about .700 net lift. I'm sure Tom can guide you in the right direction. If you replace the cage with a chrome moly one you should be able to keep the weight in the under 3750 lb. range.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the input, Harold.

BillyGman said:
Ken, although I realize that my suggestion in post #9 is an example of something more conservative than you stated that you're looking to go, in case this might be of help to you with your camshaft decision, I want to add that the cam card I posted is for the cam that I have in my 632 CID pump gas engine. While I don't have any ET's with that car yet, nor any seat time to speak of, FWIW, the dyno numbers for that cam in that engine had the HP peak (just a hair over 800) at only 5,900 RPM, and the torque peak (775 ft/lbs) at 4,000 RPM. Again, for comparison, you have 67 CID less, but better cylinder heads with bigger port volumes (my intake ports are 350cc, and they're mediocre heads at that,and without any posting work done either).

My guess is that you also probably have a better flowing intake manifold too with that EFI set-up. So with the smaller displacementm yet bigger/better cylinder heads, my guess is that a cam with those specs like the one I have might have your engine's peak power in the 6,500 RPM neighborhood (which I know is slightly less than you mentioned as being your goal) but with the better heads, the power would likely hang on more to a higher RPM.

EDIT: BTW, if it matters, the static CR in my set-up is 10.5:1 I have flat top Mahle pistons, the chambers are 119cc, valves are 2.30"/1.88" and the piston crowns are about .005" in the hole and have Total Seal gapless rings. It uses the 6.7" H-beam rods. I hope this comparo might help in some way with your decision.
Click to expand...
Sounds like a real nice combo you have, Billy. I'm wanting to wind this thing up a little. It will be interesting to see how it works out. BTW, I never responded to your quetion regarding the longer Afco shock mount bars I'm running. The are shock tie bars for an F-body. The Afco part number is 20147-3. HTH...

aukai said:
Am I correct in my thinking that the EFI will allow for a cam that would be a little more radical compared to a carb as far as manners on the street.
Click to expand...
I've heard that before, too. I'm pretty new to the FI tuning scene. I'm trying to learn as much as I can.
jughead_141 said:
No disrespect but those are some serious parts for a 75% street car. With power peak around 7000 and to live nicely on 3-4 hour trips I think your in good hands with the cam guys. I would only take the advice of a cam designer/cam company on getting specs with your combo unless someone actually has real world proven experience on a comparison. I know I would be just guessing and would be totally wrong. I do not want to make a suggestions unless I have real world experience. I used Chris on my build an could not be happier. Runs under 10 on pump gas 496.

Sounds like an awesome build. Please keep everyone informed on your results.
Click to expand...
No disrespect taken. It's not a run of the mill street engine :) I also agree with your advice. Thanks.

Busted Knuckles said:
If you haven't already bought 'em, I'd run T&D instead of Jesel rockers. Call Tracy at Sunset, (806) 747-2700, he can set you up at the best price you'll find and probably give you some injection advice, he's got a lot of experience with it.
Sorry, don't have a cam recommendation. Looks like a race engine to me - with exception of compression, that's a similar setup to what a lot of trailered 8 - 9 second cars are running. Top shelf parts, should be both powerful and reliable.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the info, Gary. I actually already own the Jesel rockers. I ran these on my 540.
 
Discussion starter · #16 ·
So what do you guys think about this grind?

Intake

.475 lobe lift x 1.75

297 Adv.

266 .050

188 .200

104



Exhaust

.460 lobe lift x 1.75

313 adv.

276 .050

190 .200

112 center



108 sep
 
#17 · (Edited)
Ken,

For max. power I would be looking at something around (need to look at it some more later tonight):

266 @ .050 intake, .890" lift, 108 ICL, 111 LSA
280 @ .050 exhaust, .870" lift, 114 ECL

That being said, I wouldn't consider a .500+ lobe on a BBC cam core a good idea for a car I was going to cruise 3-4 hours in.

A 55mm cam core is a good idea if you are stuck with the 1.75 rocker. Since you are already bushing for lifters (required for 55 mm core IMO) I would go that direction since we are spending your $$ :D
 
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#19 ·
I didn't read through all of the posts so sorry if any repetition. I was wondering where you saw your cruise RPM to be?

I would also consider the RPM drop between shifts, not so much at the strip, but on the street for cruising when granny shifting....which you probably will do after a few 100 miles. A wider 112 - 114 LSA for a broader Torque Band and less lug on the street. 108 to 110 probably best for the strip..so the 111LSA mentioned seems to split that down the middle.

Just from experience with a street strip larger inch motor... the cam in my 540is 252/260 and .680 lift and runs out of snot approaching 6500 RPM. To make peak power at 7000 with decent street manners I would first look in the mid to upper 260's and whatever Brodix recommends the exhaust split to be don't know with those heads.

Have you thought about running different rocker ratios for street and strip? 1.60's or 65's on the street and 1.75's or 1.80's at the track. I am pretty sure Jesel has this range available. I know they have 1.65's through 1.80's. That would get you in the streetable lift area and can get you in a more race lift spec.

without any other analysis that's just a gut feeling since there are so many variables.

I have always been a little conservative with cam grinds because I like to make more work for myself ;)
 
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