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Record on Wiping a Cam

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rbarnes

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
I just had a 396 rebuilt by a so called reputable engine builder. I just got everything hooked up and ready for priming. Well I primed the engine for 5 minutes and would turn the crank by hand a quarter turn and prime for another 5 minutes did this for 20 minutes. Put in the distributor hooked up the wires and checked over everything to make sure I didn't forget anything. Now came the moment I have been waiting for, I had my wife turn the key and after a couple of turns she fired up (the engine not my wife) I had to adjust the timing a little and took it up to 2000rpm for the cam break in. Well thats when it happened, I started hearing a slight ticking sound coming from the right valve cover. Then it started getting louder so I shut the engine down after 5 minutes of run time. At first I thought it was a collapsed lifter. I decided to take off the valve cover to take a look, the #6 exhaust lifter was really loose. So I took off the intake this morning to find that four lobes have been wipped. The part that really gets me about this whole thing is that I paid alot of money top get this thing rebuilt ($4800.00) and I have to take it back out to get them to fix their mistake. I wonder about the components they used. They used a Mellings cam,lifters,retainers,springs,push rods and oil pump. I heard Mellings makes good oil pumps , but what about the rest of these components.
Sorry about the long post, just trying to vent some frustration. :mad:

I,m not bashing Mellings just curious, I didn't even know they made cams.
 
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#2 ·
Why exactly is this the fault of the engine builder?
Unless there is a problem with coil bind, retainers hitting the seals, rockers binding etc.

We as machinists & engine builders do not make the parts & the machinists that try to help on here like Bill, Carl from CNC Blocks & myself do our best to do as good a job as is humanly possible although sometimes stuff does happen :( but we do not make the damn parts & I for one do not appreciate posts that immediately assume it is the machinist that screwed something up until the facts are known.

Just some venting from one of your local machinists :rolleyes:
 
#3 ·
I've run Melling cams along with their oil pumps and never had a problem. I'm curious as why you didnt let them install in your car and get it running? It seems to me that they would have wanted it that way in order to warranty their work...How long did the motor sit between them building it and you starting it?
 
Discussion starter · #4 ·
My mistake for posting. I should have known better than to post here. Wolfplace, I really don't care what you appreciate. Robert, I was trying to keep the cost down. I just bought the car and the engine went bad. The engine sat for a week.
 
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#5 ·
Originally posted by rbarnes:
My mistake for posting. I should have known better than to post here. Wolfplace, I really don't care what you appreciate. Robert, I was trying to keep the cost down. I just bought the car and the engine went bad. The engine sat for a week.
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Hey, no mistake in posting, nothing wrong with posting here at all it's one of the best places on the net to learn & it's your prerogative if you don't care what I think.

The point was why not give your machinist the benefit of the doubt until you know it was his fault instead of jumping to the conclusion it had to be his fault??
 
#6 ·
As reputable engine builders,maybe you should test fire the engines for the customers and have them set anbd ready to run before they put them in the car.....this way you see any problems or failures beforehand and save the customer the time and money and agrivation in pulling this motor back out, and not to say having the customer ticked off at you and having a HUGE can of worms on your hands. rbarnes did not seem to me to be blaming all the engine builders...just stating what he has been through....and rightfuly so....just my 2 cents....Hey were supposed to help each other here....the world is not perfect nor are the parts we buy or we as people....Chill Out.
 
#7 ·
Originally posted by black&redss:
As reputable engine builders,maybe you should test fire the engines for the customers and have them set anbd ready to run before they put them in the car.....this way you see any problems or failures beforehand and save the customer the time and money and agrivation in pulling this motor back out, and not to say having the customer ticked off at you and having a HUGE can of worms on your hands. rbarnes did not seem to me to be blaming all the engine builders...just stating what he has been through....and rightfuly so....just my 2 cents....Hey were supposed to help each other here....the world is not perfect nor are the parts we buy or we as people....Chill Out.
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I don't believe I said anywhere that rbarnes was blaming all engine builders.

I believe what I said was not to assume the problem lies with the machinist until the facts are known.

Could have been a mistake by his machinist, could have been a bad part, hell, could have been the stars weren't aligned right, I don't have a clue.

What was stated is the engine had to come out because of the mistake of the person who built the engine which implies all fault lies with him & this is all I took issue with, nothing else.

At the risk of repeating myself as it seems you may have missed it:

The point was why not give your machinist the benefit of the doubt until you know it was his fault instead of jumping to the conclusion it had to be his fault??

And to rbarnes,
Do not take my post the wrong way. I hate to see things like this happen to anyone no matter where the problem may lie.

It was just me doing some "venting" as a machinist who really does care about the work I do & know how I along with most (not all but most) in this trade would feel if it were me that was in your machinists place before the facts were known.

So,,, if I offended you I apoligize & I am truly sorry for your problems & hope you have an engine builder who will help you.
 
#8 ·
noname,
I got to this one late, but also really take it as an insult to all of us that the engine builder is automatically blamed when something fails. If you had the central air in your house replaced and a week later the compressor in the unit failed, would it be the installers fault ?????????

As reputable engine builders,maybe you should test fire the engines for the customers and have them set anbd ready to run before they put them in the car.....this way you see any problems or failures beforehand and save the customer the time and money and agrivation in pulling this motor back out, and not to say having the customer ticked off at you and having a HUGE can of worms on your hands.
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99% of customers will not pay the extra $700 or so it would cost to have me install the carb and ignition system and fire the engine up to break it in. Would you have paid it ??
Like Mike said, it was not a mistake to post here, but I think you need to give the engine builder a break until you find out exactly what caused the failure. To be honest with you, unless the heads were set up wrong, there is not much that can be done to keep a camshaft from failing. Personally, I have been building fewer and fewer complete engines lately ... mostly due to the fact that I cannot control what happens to them after they leave my shop. One thing for sure, I will not allow a customer to start one without myself or one of my employees being present.

I dont think anyone is trying to "beat you up" over this, just put yourself in our places ... you do everything humanly possible to ensure a "perfect" engine but a part fails and its all your fault :( I just noticed your occupation in your profile ... how would you like it if you designed something into a vehicle, and then, due to a manufacturing defect all the involved parts started failing. How would you feel if all of the customers started calling you and blaming you on the failure ??? Worse yet, what if GM blamed you instead of the part manufacturer ??? See what I mean ??
 
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Discussion starter · #9 ·
I didn't start this post to offend or bash anyone. I'm very frustrated by this whole motor thing. I wish I had the money to take it and have them install it. But as you know this hobby is getting very exspensive. The final bill on this motor was alot more than I exspected. I hope they are willing to help resolve this problem, but my exsperience with them so far hasn't been that great. I hope the machine shop is as understanding as you guys and doesn't automaticly blame me for doing something wrong.
 
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Discussion starter · #10 ·
Bill, I understand what your saying, but I didn't intend this post to blame the engine builder. At the end of my post I did question the quality of the components. I don't know what the hell went wrong but I have an engine that don't run and a payment due the 15th.
 
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#11 ·
Rbarnes this is precisely the #1 reason why i took the time to build a engine test & runup stand complete with every mechanical gauge + tach!
It's like starting it up in a car BUT checking everything out 100% and running it for a hour or better has sorted out many quirky items others have done prior to runup.
Yup it was a time consuming job to build BUT once it's been run then installed in a car NO PROBLEMS EVER.
I double check MY work also cuz i dont have all the answeres

Jim
 
#12 ·
With all these damn cam failures we keep hearing about why would anyone run anything less than a roller. Yes they cost more but crossing your fingers while the motor is spinning at 2k is just ludicrous.
 
#13 ·
Its like a coin toss. My Comp Cams Solid broke in 100% perfect and i never removed the inner spring. Oil looks great and no adjustments needed after 700 miles and a lil track time. If it did wipe a lobe i would blame the cam itself, never go and say the builder did something a miss. It could be anything...sucks either way.
Ed
 
#14 ·
I haven't built a complete engine since the 70's. I never had, nor heard of, any cam failures during inital start up. :rolleyes: I am questioning the quality of all cams being produced today to account for the epidemic of lobe failure??!! :eek: What is so different about starting a new engine today compared to 30 years ago ? You guys have me scared to install a new cam. :(
 
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#15 ·
I think this post brings to light that when someone has spent alot of money on something, that he or she expects perfection and quality results from that effort. However when as stated above things do brake, even when new! Computers, cars, engines, fail when brand new. I put together a hydraulic cammed BBC in 73' where the cam failed at brake in! 2nd cam performed perfectly! BBC notoriously are tough on cams at brake in so simply tell you're story in a calm manner to machinist and they probably will help rectify problem, otherwise take your business somewhere else. Getting testy with some of the best in the engine building business here on this forum isn't the way to get sympathy or help!!! Hey, we all feel for ya dude with your engine problem cause we've had to deal with it too! Peace! :cool:
 
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#16 ·
I was just wondering about what Jim said today cause back in high school we would stick a garden hose in them and fire them up on the floor ha ha. We did have a run in stand in auto shop.Also what second chance said I had never heard of so many wiped cams till getting on team chevelle maybe they have always been there and we just dident know about them.As I mentioned in the fulie head post I'm chicken to pick a brand also I always had heard that you were to vary the engine speed Now we know better Hey Blazerbob I'm just over the hill from you.
 
#17 ·
I get my new project (like I need another one) this week, a '69 Firebird with a fresh 455 in it that needs a new block. I also get a fresh block that needs machining with the car. Hydraulic roller cam that went into the engine at less than 1k miles had a lifter take a dump, come apart, and crack the lifter bore down and through the cam gallery.
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I've helped build this car basically from the ground up, so I know what's in it, and while it hurts to see stuff like this, you've gotta be willing to chance it. It's not a cheap hobby, by far. FWIW, I always assemble my own motors regardless of who machined it, just so I know it's done properly. I used to use a machinist who would occasionally forget to do some requested work, like decking the block, or checking the main bores for alignment and doing an align hone if needed.
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I just couldn't see relying on that shop to actually assemble the motor. The machinist I use now is really good with quality, but if you want your engine assembled too, it's gonna take alot longer to get your engine back, due to their backlog of commercial work. The hotrod stuff tends to take a back seat to the shop's bread and butter. This I fully understand. I can usually remind them of my work by dropping off some refreshments on a Friday afternoon. ;)
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As stated before, it'd do you a whole lot better to go talk to your machinist about it nicely, see if there's anything they can/will do about it. I'm thinking they'll probably be willing to help, as long as you don't start off implying fault. And I'm also thinking that $4800 is kinda expensive for what you got. The shop I use can usually do any big block, whether Chevy, Ford, or Dodge, for about $3k, using name brand pistons and cam/lifters. This would be a stock styled rebuild, long block, using your crank/rods/heads/block. Assembled, too.

Darren
 
#18 ·
I think the first thing I would do is to get the cam & lifters Rockwell Tested.. However, if the cam is bad, I would still think that the shop should help you out, as they supplied the cam.. If course they should go back to the people who supplied the cam to them as well..

PS, sorry to here about the cam failure, been there, done that(this past spring).. Never did find out what caused my failure..

Scott
 
#19 ·
If you want to hear about cam failures, go to
the 3rd Gen.org Forum ( Camaro ) Seems Comp
Cams have been failing by the truck load as
of late. Now I do realize that high spring
pressures and improper installations contribute
to cam failures, but there does seem to be
an inordinate amount of wiped Comp cams.

As a matter of fact, there is an ongoing
class action Lawsuit involving Scat steel
cranks. Seems that these cranks are inferior
Chinese forgings. If you are running one of
these pieces, you may want to keep an eye
on it.

My take on chinese Repro engine parts is
sceptical at best. As a matter of fact, there
are so many Chinese repro clones out there,
that many Guys running around with Musclecars
actually have a Import.

The up side of owning a Chevelle/Camaro import
is at least for some, they can find
parts to put on their car and can at least
get it together and have something to drive.

For me, I no speak Chinese
Image
 
#20 ·
Johnny B beat me to it. Anyone know which cams are made in the U.S.A.with U.s.steel not that I'm sceptical of Chinese products. I'll pay more and buy the U.S. version if there still is one.
 
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rbarnes
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