Wilwood Kits - What's not to like?

383 · Dec 28, 2004

Well it looks like i have to buy the 140-7019 kit then?

sinned · Dec 28, 2004

Brake calipers have very little to do with stopping performance. The rotor acts as a lever that pivots at the spindle pin, the larger the rotor swept area, the longer the lever is that the caliper acts against. Granted the caliper needs to have enough clamping force to slow the rotor but putting bigger calipers on an already properly designed system will not improve stopping performance. My pedigree includes 15 years as a journeyman brake and suspension tech.....I have a prety good understanding of how brakes systems work. A clue as to what affects braking the most might come form the fact that nearly every major brake manufacter offers upgrade kits and in every case it includes larger diameter rotors.

The G body 10" brakes are not even optimum for that platform, they would perform miserably on an A body.

Call Wilwood, they will have no problem telling you that their "heavyweight" drag kits are not designed for daily street use, and for sure not designed for any kind of auto-x/open track events as you indicate you are looking for by posting over at P-T.

Herb · Dec 28, 2004

Hey Dennis, while I've got you here, what do you tink about the Edelbrock adjustable upper rear control arms?

sinned · Dec 28, 2004

Do a search Herb.....We have discussed them at length not long ago. I love them as far as upgrades to the OE design goes.

Wally8 · Dec 29, 2004

Dennis,

I'd have to take issue with your statement that calipers have little to do with stopping power. Yes, it's true that a larger diameter rotor offers a bigger lever and thus greater stopping power with same size caliper.

However, a larger caliper, one with more pistons and thus more brake pad area will likewise provide more braking power. It's the same as putting on larger tires for more traction. If you add a six piston caliper you will have more stopping power on the same size rotor. Quite a bit more.

Later...

Wally

sinned · Dec 29, 2004

Quite a bit more right up until the rotor explodes from the added heat build up from clamping force it wasn't designed for. Calipers should never just be thrown on to a rotor, 1st rotor size is determined then a caliper is matched to the rotor followed by a master cylinder that has the correct amount of fluid displacement vs. pedal stroke and effort.

It's not as simple as to just say adding bigger calipers will improve stopping performance. Stopping performance is not simply a measure of how short a vehicle will stop from speed but how consistently will it do it and what is the longevity of the parts. Quick stops mean nothing if you experience brake fade during commute conditions or if pads/rotors prematurely fail.

Wally8 · Dec 30, 2004

That you would have to dissipate the additional heat is a given. That's the way brakes work. The amount of heat given off is proportional to the amount of stopping force applied. That's the case with any braking system. I also agree that it probably isn't a good idea on stock rotors. It's pretty common practice on wilwood rotors though (most nascar cars are limited on rotor size due to the wheel size) and yes it is as easy as adding a bigger caliper. We've had our wilwood rotors glowing red for 50 laps and they haven't cracked, let alone exploded. Of course they aren't providing optimal stopping power at that point either

Talk about your brake fade!

Don't get me wrong Dennis I'm not dissing you. I've read a lot of your posts and have gotten a lot of good info. I'm just pointing out this one thing. Just trying to help get the best info out there. You can upgrade calipers and get noticeably better stopping power and still manage the heat issue. Especially on a street car that isn't driven too hard, usually

Later...

Wally

sinned · Dec 30, 2004

OK, I will agree to a point but it's VERY important to point out to our viewers that the Napa or Autozone rotors are NOT going handle that kind of heat. Upgrading calipers is fine as long as the rest of the system can handle it. I tend to shy away from offering advice/opinions that require use of parts not easily obtainable i.e. It takes a lot of work and contacts to get Wilwood rotors adapted to a stock Chevy spindle on a street driver.

Wally8 · Dec 30, 2004

You bring up another good point Denny. It would seem that it is difficult but it's just that most people don't know the good sources. Speedway Motors (http://www.speedwaymotors.com) and AFCO Racing (http://www.afcoracing.com) have everything you need to completely redo the suspension on an A-body. This chassis (and the newer metric frames) are used in thousands of IMCA type modifieds and hobby stock classes in circle track racing. These guys have tweaked these suspensions out completely. They've got the bump steer issues worked out, the brakes, all of it. I've raced modifieds and street stocks (crew chief, not driver) for quite a few years and have done quite a bit with these suspensions.

Turning the rotor off of the stock hub or getting aftermarket hubs and putting on a brake hat and rotor along with a caliper bracket adapter is pretty common stuff for impala spindles (pinto spindles are used too along with spindles off of monte carlos and such). We also fix the bump steer by using a different drag link (86-88 IROC Z) and using heim ends as the outside tie rod ends with a bolt through the spindle steering arm to allow adjustability up and down (you have to drill the hole out so it's not tapered). There are also lots of ball joint options to get the right roll center and probably the biggest thing is that AFCO tubular upper A arms are only $45 each, pretty much any length you want. Of course you need different springs with these mods and the car is quite a bit lower when it's done.

Also, you can abuse the stock rotors pretty heavily. We have to use them on the mods and even with stock calipers you can make them work pretty well and they will take a lot of heat but a mod only weighs 2200 - 2400lbs. I'd go aftermarket if I had a choice.

Later...

Wally

sinned · Dec 30, 2004

Some of us know all about those sources... springs and steering/suspension .

Yeah, the circle track wharehouses have lots to offer including brake kits but most enthusiats want some simple and that they can buy parts for at the local part store.....not wait a week for UPS, good point though.

Wally8 · Dec 31, 2004

Yep, that's it. A picture is worth a thousand words as they say....

I really like those ride height adjusters. They're great for that application.

BTW, do you have any more specs on those spindles you're thinking about making? Are you making tubular type spindles like a late model?

Wally

sinned · Dec 31, 2004

Have not decided between modular units or not. I would prefer to be able to change steering arms at will but price of machine labor will dictate ultimate construction.

I would like al. but that is probably going to be to pricey, so steel it is. No cast spindles for me, seen enough of them break/bend/othrewise destroyed. Give me until next month(Feb) and I will have all the deatils.

THORSS70 · Dec 31, 2004

Sorry to just pop in here, but Denny I really like your Vette brake swap and would like to talk to you more about it when I am ready. I don't live to far from you, maybe one day I can shoot over and check out the swap in person.

BTW, do these brakes require larger than 15" wheels?

sinned · Dec 31, 2004

Yep, Craig they require 17". Even some 17's will require minor some clearance work to fit.

Shoot me an email and I'll give you my cell. I'm almost always around.

72SSAbody · Dec 31, 2004

Originally posted by THORSS70:
Sorry to just pop in here, but Denny I really like your Vette brake swap...

BTW, do these brakes require larger than 15" wheels?

Oh no...another one suckered in

Craig,
You can also check out my website to answer some of your questions on the swap.

Dennis has been very helpful with the swap and getting it done 'just right'

Joe

THORSS70 · Jan 1, 2005

Oh boy, you 2 are definately sucking this A-body owner in on this swap.
The wife keeps pestering me to upgrade the brakes/suspension on the old beast and this will fit the bill nicely. I am one for the 'alternative' budget route, and this is definitly it.

OK, I see Joe is using stock upper a arms, is this swap you did with the B-body spindles or is this with the stock A-body? I also see Denny's car with tubular uppers, I would think that would be the way to go but is more expensive. The tubular uppsers is most likely the route I will be taking and want to make the best choice here.

17 inch wheels? Oh boy, time to start looking for some billit rims and tires. This alone will be the most $$ I will be spending here, but man will it look nice

This is killing me here, I still need my poor truck running and driving to

sinned · Jan 1, 2005

Stock uppers will work fine. I am using tubular uppers for a different reason (added negative camber and positive caster).

The 13" C5 swap is probably the single best brake upgrade out there, Baer's track series is the exact same thing and even the Wilwood high end 4-piston kit is barely better. When you get into the 14" Alcon kits...well that's another story and over 2500 for front's alone.

Craig, I have some extra C5 rotors laying around too to help save a buck or 2. You're welcome to them. Also, check the Centerline "deals" section of their website...they have nice looking 17" wheels for around 600/set.

THORSS70 · Jan 2, 2005

So one can use the stock uppers with the B-body spindle? I thought a longer arm was needed, or an offset mount/arm was needed. I don't mind spending the extra cash to get uppers, what is an ideal arm to run?

Also, Denny I will be calling or mailing you when the time comes for this swap, which if nothing else weird comes up will be this month. Thanks so much for the help.

Now to plan the rear disk, or stay with drums...

sinned · Jan 2, 2005

If you want the best buy a pair of G.W. I won't spent that kind of coin on tube arms but they are pretty and will last forever.

Again, stockers will work, depending on how much it's lowered will determine how thick of a shim pack you will need....more lowered, less shims.

Give a shout when you are ready.

72SSAbody · Jan 2, 2005

Originally posted by THORSS70:

Now to plan the rear disk, or stay with drums...

Craig,
You can also take a look at my webpage for some rear disc ideas.

I would personally run the LS1 rear disc setup. You can get brand new parts from GM and slap them on the chevelle for a lot cheaper than what the parts houses charge for their kits.

My webpage has the part numbers.

Joe

Wilwood Kits - What's not to like?

383

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Herb

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THORSS70

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