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97LT4SS

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
The 1972 Chevelle SS I just purchased has an engine code with two II's instead of two 11's is this ok? Complete engine code is as follows: TII22CRW which reads November 22nd

Car was built in the first week of Dec and 12A is on the Cowl Tag.
Engine casting number is 3999289 with a Casting Date of J 12 71
 
I have seen ones where the 1 looks like an I. I'm no expert but I'd say as long as the stamping looks OK. It's legit... Can you post a pic? Does the Con-Vin match your car??

Heres a pic of a 70. You can see the top of the 1 looks like I
T0212CRR
Image
 
Discussion starter · #3 · (Edited)
Good, exactly what my 1's look like. Yes, stamped VIN # matches the # on the tag, although the last 3 numbers 808 almost look like 8088. Actually the last two 8's appear to be almost stamped on top of one another. Weird but people stamped the blocks by hand so I guess anything is possible.

I pick the car up in two weeks, I'll post a picture then.
 
Yes, it is common for Tonowanda to have used "I"s in place of "1"s, especially in October, November and December.
 
Discussion starter · #5 ·
Scott,

What do you mean when you say Con-VIN? Are you referring to the VIN # stamped on the block compared to the VIN on the dash? Reason I ask is I found a set of numbers on the left rear frame next to the resonator. They do not match the last five digits of my VIN 527808.
Not sure if it makes a difference but my car was built in Canada.
Numbers are are as follows, and are about 1/4" in height:

Hayes
6263667
76712

As you can see neither a 7 or 5 digit # can match the VIN or sequence # on the Cowl Tag because both are 6 digits.

Thanks,
Eric
 
Scott,

What do you mean when you say Con-VIN? Are you referring to the VIN # stamped on the block compared to the VIN on the dash? Reason I ask is I found a set of numbers on the left rear frame next to the resonator. They do not match the last five digits of my VIN 527808.
Not sure if it makes a difference but my car was built in Canada.
Numbers are are as follows, and are about 1/4" in height:

Hayes
6263667
76712

As you can see neither a 7 or 5 digit # can match the VIN or sequence # on the Cowl Tag because both are 6 digits.

Thanks,
Eric
I don't pretend to answer for Scott, but yes, CON VIN (confidential or concealed) VIN refers to the partial VIN stamped on various components consisting of the year/plant/sequence number. If the numbers above are on the side of the frame rail, they're usually the frame manufacturer's number and date. The hidden/partial/concealed/CON (whatever derivative name is used) is normally stamped on top of the frame rail where it's hard to read. See http://www.chevellestuff.com/qd/frames.htm for some examples of 'typical' locations for the partial VIN on frames.

FWIW, numbers on the cowl tag (Fisher Body number plate) have nothing to do with any part of the VIN other than the general Fisher Body Style.

Also, while the numbers stamped on the engine block were done by a person, by 68 or 69 the dies were generally placed in a holder (often referred to as a 'gang stamp') and stamped as one unit instead of each letter/number being individually stamped. If the stamp wasn't held perpendictular to the stamped surface often one or more characters weren't stamped deep enough and have been known to get a second whack at it.

Image
 
Discussion starter · #7 · (Edited)
Dale, again great info thanks. Had planned on taking out the gas tank in order to clean it up, hopefully that will give me the room needed to look at the top of the frame rail.

Is my build date 76712 July 6, 1971 Shift 2 correct for a '72 which was built in the first week of Dec 1971? 5 months seems like quite a gap?

Thank you,
Eric
 
Discussion starter · #8 ·
Dale,

Spent the better part of 2 hours last night cleaning off the top of the entire frame with scotchbrite and no CON # was visable using a mirror. Even removed the cowl screens and again no numbers. Is it possible Canada built Chevelles were not stamped at all or could the VIN # be somewhere else on the frame?

Most of the body mounts are still in pretty good (except the rear under the bumper) condition and no rust or rot was found during my search. Nothing better than working on my back.

Thanks for your help,
Eric
 
What keeps some person from grinding them off and make them match their vin? Mark
 
I agree but you should be able to notice if its been redone...right
Its not every day they make those stamps Mark:confused:
 
I agree but you should be able to notice if its been redone...right
Its not every day they make those stamps Mark:confused:
yes there are a few telltale signs we look for when authenticating a vin stamp on an engine block.
Its not perfect but most of the time we can tell the difference.:yes:
 
Discussion starter · #13 ·
Just changed my valve cover gaskets and my head casting dates are 1 month apart, is that ok? Block itself was cast on J 12 71, but heads were cast on K 12 71 and J 12 71, exactly 30 days apart. Motor was assembled on Nov 22, 1971. I wish the pass side head was also cast with a J but that's not the case, K 12 71 is the number.

Last casting date question? Intake was cast on K 3 71, which was two weeks after the motor was assembled, not possible, correct?

Thanks
 
the heads being a month apart is a non-issue..........
the intake must have been changed @ one point,maybe the original had an issue such as a crack.

What casting # are the heads? I've seen '72 454 with either 3992292's or 3999241's such as mine has. Both the heads are very similar but it seems the '241's have a slightly smaller combustion chamber.
 
Discussion starter · #15 · (Edited)
Heads are both 241's. I'll have to search for a Oct-Nov Intake, maybe by then I will also have the correct Carb?

Since my Chevelle was built during the first week of Dec is it possible that when the motor was fired up at Oshawa the intake was defective and had to be replaced at the plant in order to ship the car?

The intake was cast on Dec 3rd so I guess anything is possible, motors were not fired up until installed in the car, right?
 
Heads are both 241's. I'll have to search for a Oct-Nov Intake, maybe by then I will also have the correct Carb?

Since my Chevelle was built during the first week of Dec is it possible that when the motor was fired up at Oshawa the intake was defective and had to be replaced at the plant in order to ship the car?

The intake was cast on Dec 3rd so I guess anything is possible, motors were not fired up until installed in the car, right?


That I'm not sure about but I'm sure someone like DaleM knows that answer...
 
One thing I've learned is you can never underestimate what GM might have been doing.

But looking at the dates involved I would question that the intake of the original engine was defective and replaced with another then installed in the car.

Engines were not started at Tonawanda but were pressure and hot tested before being crated for delivery. The engine date and suffix ID was stamped about halfway through the assembly proceudre, ie., before the heads, intake, exhaust, etc. were installed. See http://www.chevellestuff.com/tech/engine_assembly_order.htm

So if sometime between the engine being date stamped (Nov 22) and completion of testing (probably same or next day) if the intake was found defective would the engine be pulled and sit in repair rack for two weeks or would the defective intake be pulled and replaced right then by a maintenance/repair station?

Would the engine assembly process be like the Lucy & Ethel candy wrapping assembly line? Surely there must have been some repair stations set aside for minor problems. If no more intakes were available until Dec. 3rd, that'd mean no more engines could be built and shipped after Nov. 22 until intakes did become available on Dec. 3. I doubt that would be an acceptable policy.

Dec. 3, 1971 was a Friday. Did Tonowanda take a fresh batch of castings on that day and catch up on all the engines that needed them since Nov. 22? That would take some time at least to paint, install, pressure test and hot test before crating and shipping the following week.

It was stated the car was built the first week of December; I assume that was derived from a 12A body date. Nobody and no place I've found yet has defined what physical dates made up "A" week, or "B" week, or any other letter week. Looking at previous years & plants, there seems to be no consistency or standard for the dates of a given letter week. Why would a plant (or 2 plants) have, say, an "E" week in a given month when two different plants would have an "E" week the following month? My conclusion, different plants had different methods of defining the days/dates of a given letter week.

GM would have had the car in the system schedule to be built prior to or during the "A" week, whatever physical days "A" week might consist of, assuming they had all the componets on hand. Fisher didn't build the bodies not knowing if the final assembly line had their parts to complete the car and leave them sitting around the factory waiting for major components.

Bottom line, with a 1st week body date on the car, a Nov. 22 dated engine block, shipping, car assembly times, etc. a Dec. 3rd intake would not likely have happened.
 
One thing we have to think about, I DO believe that castings use "I" for September, therefore K is only November, and L is December. I know for a FACT that I have seen an "I" 1970 cast 512 block....:yes:

Sooo, therefore, a November 3rd intake is legit for a 1122 built engine.
 
Hello guys, I had an opportunity to attend an NCRS meet/seminar yesterday, the guest speaker was Al Grening a gentleman who has spent the last 20+ years studying and gathering information on primarily 1963-1967 Corvette engine pads, trim plates and Vin #'s. I have to say the 4 hrs. spent was totally incredible and has changed the way I will judge engine pads from now on. Example at Tonawonda it was not uncommon to use a file to remove a mis-stamped # from a B.B. and stamp over and in some cases striking a mis-stamp with a hammer (smooshing the pad) and stamping the correct info over the top. In one case G.M. had several base small blocks from passenger car application and decided to use them in base motor Corvettes, they ground the pads and re-stamped them for a Corvette, there are examples of Vin.# stamped upside down and build dates reverse side of vin.#s. I can go on & on, this information is real with documentation and he has a file of over 9,000 pics of engine pads.
I think the bottom line is keep an open mind when looking at engine pads because anything is possible.
Rich02
 
One thing we have to think about, I DO believe that castings use "I" for September, therefore K is only November, and L is December. I know for a FACT that I have seen an "I" 1970 cast 512 block....:yes:

Sooo, therefore, a November 3rd intake is legit for a 1122 built engine.
You're correct. :bow:

Should have looked at the casting letter date instead of assuming it was December; "K" is November and "L" is December. :clonk:
 
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