UDHarold? 540 Cam recommendation?

540Hotrod · Dec 30, 2003

Thanks Harold...

Looking at the two cams you mentioned, the first one is actually closest overall to mine when I look at adv/.050/.200 etc. But even it is MORE aggressive than the one I have now! Mine is only at 185/190*@.200.

As far as I know, the cam is still in good shape, but I'll be opening it up soon for it's "winter check up" and a new cam could always be in the new plans!

I've been using Engle for the last few years primarily for the same reason everyone here is sticking with you. Great response and help! When I started calling all the big cam companies I got burned out very quickly with most of the counter help. If it wasn't for a 350 with a Q-jet they were lost! I remember thinking..."I know you have some smart people there...please let me talk to one of them!" But of course I didn't actually tell them that! When I called Engle, within a few minutes the guy put me on the phone with Mark Engle since I was "talking over his head". At least he knew when to pass on a customer to someone else. Mark spent a lot of time working with me on combo of lobes that would live and so far they have been great.

But just like everyone else, I'm always looking for more! I would bet that your "faster" lobes spread back out to 112 would still maintain similar manners of what I have now. And as Mike has mentioned, cam shape has EVERYTHING to do with this stuff, and you have a great rep in that area as well as making power! I'm sorry I didn't call you when I was working on this stuff originally, but I think I had Ultradyne in my head as building killer Super Stocker stuff for class racing and not so much all this other stuff. Sorry! We might have been together a long time ago!

Mike, I'll be contacting you for lifters soon!

Harold,let me see what it looks like when I open it. For sure if it needs one, I'll be calling you to work out the exact combo!

Doggy....

It's a Merlin II block with an Eagle crank and .250 SCAT rods. It has SRP pistons with an actual 11.06 final compression ratio. The heads are Brodix 2Xtras with 2.30/1.88's that have been professionally ported. They spent lots of time on bench developing the ports and valve job angles. Amazing what little things do. They are angle milled to 112 cc. The intake is an Edelbrock Super Victor that was home ported by me. The cam is an Engle 272/278 .731/.731 0n 110 LSA.
Carb is a homebuilt/modified 9375 1050cfm Dominator.
It made Peak TQ-662ft lbs@5400 rpm and peak hp- 825.1@7400 rpm. It was only dropping 4-6 ft lbs per 100 rpm at that point but I was starting to chicken out on how high I wanted to rev this street weenie motor! I think we could have kept playing with it to get a little more, but I was happy there. This was done with a 1" open spacer and no vacuum pump (just breathers).

I had some oil pressure issues at high rpm once I got it running in car this time around that had never been noticed before. I ended up using a stepped style Milodon race pan to replace the Moroso street pan. Maybe I picked up a few Hp there too!

Any other questions,,,,let me know!

JIM

UDHarold · Dec 30, 2003

Mr. Horsepower,

Those are probably bogus specs. The .050 numbers are nowhere close to the seat and .200 numbers, unless the manufacturer is rating the cams extremely high, like at .028" ramp height.
I have 2 intake lobes for comparison:
UR81 287@.020 253(255 in BBC) @.050, 172° @ .200, .3883 lobe lift, .660 valve lift.
UR9 286@.020 253(Again, 255 in BBC) @ .050,
173 @ .200 .4033 lobe lift, .685" valve lift.
The exhaust numbers are similar.
Check it out further and let me know.
I've reached my 'computer limit' for tonight...

UDHarold

3V Performance · Dec 30, 2003

UDHAROLD, Thanks for the reply. The numbers are at .020.

Comp lobes:
IN 6255 ( 286/260-173 .376 lobe)
EX 6219 ( 295/268-176 .345 lobe)

I have been hearing so much about your (310/318r12) that i'm not sure I have the right cam for my combo.

454 +.060
4.25 stroke
6.385 rod (+250)
11to1 comp
840 steel closed chamberd heads. (pocket ported)
Factory dual plane intake
750hp DP carb

Street and strip driven 50/50

4-speed
current 4.10 gears ( might go 3.55 )

Thanks

doggy69 · Dec 30, 2003

Thanks 540 I am interested in your torque curve. How was the low end torque like the 2000-4000 range? My 540 combo is 600-700 there and I doing a six speed swap so loosing some low end might not be bad. I am running a 10.9-1 merlin II block 305 grumpy jenkins alumiinum heads that have been ported polished and a rpm air gap with a demon 750. Cam is a small lunati grind my builder picked with .602 lift and something around 230 duration. Thanks again Dane

doggy69 · Dec 30, 2003

Harold out of curiosity what kind of $ is the 303?
$300?

540Hotrod · Dec 31, 2003

Doggy...

This combination is "soggier" at low speeds than the first combination I built. But that is a relative term. It will still get sideways in every gear! The first one made 678 ft lbs@4800. I didn't dyno test below 4000 rpm but it never dropped below 600 ft lbs at that point. Chassis dyno testing showed 615 RWHP @ 6200 rpm or so with all accessories operating. This is due to several factors. Main thing is cam and intake changes. The first one used an old Team G intake (still had the bolt holes above intake ports). This is a good intake, but it is relatively small and definitely small for a 540. But it was the only thing that would fit under my hood. I found it was seriously running out of air above 6400 or so rpm. It peaked HP in the 6000-6200 range at 732 HP and then rapidly dropped off after 6500 and was down to 591 HP by 7000 rpm. I never did any carb spacer testing that time around which might have helped some. I was also using a 262/273 on 112 LSA solid roller which is a good bit milder than what I have now.

Interestingly, Engle recommended that I keep that cam in place and see what head porting and intake alone would do since it was such a great driving street cam. Of course I just couldn't do that!

The first year or so I had it running I found the midrange TQ to be in the "stupid" range. Doing anything on street tires was useless even from a 70+ mph roll. It would literally start spinning when you nailed it at 70 and you were actually having to "drive" it past 100 mph while it was still spinning. Quite a handful. You had to really roll gently into the throttle. I can imagine yours with the smaller heads, cam and dual plane must be awful similar if not even crazier!

So, this time around I intentionally picked parts to move the power band upwards and kill off some midrange. Compared to the old 4800 rpm peak TQ, it's only down 25-30 ft lbs., but at 6500 it's up over 100 ft lbs! I can tell you the car is MUCH more driveable under power and pulls like crazy up top. My only issue is that my gearing is still based on the old combo and I'm just getting into 4th gear right before the finish line. Gotta work on that some. I only have 3.07 gears with a 5 speed!

The Super Victor is about the largest cast intake out there and for sure kills off low end some, especially compared to your dual plane. But what I like about this dude is that at 7000 rpm it is up over 230+ HP over the first combo. That comes from improving the airflow capabilities. It makes about 10 ftlbs less at peak, and peak is 600 rpm or so higher, but I'll trade that anyday for a couple hundred HP more up where I can actually put it down to the track!

You might try some header testing. I've tried 2", 2-1/8" and 2-1/4". I can tell you that up to 6400-6500 the 2" ones were up significantly over 2-1/4" ones. Like 68 ft lbs at 4700!! Right at 6500 they started going the other way and were down right at 36 ft lbs at 7200. Thats like 50 HP! So depending on where you are planning to rev it to and what your rpm drops are between gears, you might try them out! Right now I'm using the 2" ones in the car but will be installing 2-1/8" ones over the winter.

Good luck!

JIM

UDHarold · Dec 31, 2003

Mr Horsepower,

Sorry about the mix-up. In your original post, you had typed 286/295R10, and I assumed it was a roller. Now the specs make more sense. You have a tite-lash solid cam from Comp, one that they call their 'Most Aggressive' solid lifter lobes. The .200 numbers were making no sense for the .050s, until you realize it is a .842 solid, not a roller.
As far as the 310/318R12, it is one of the most popular 540 street/strip cams I make. It is 'dead-nuts' reliable, capable of 2000 miles in 24 hours with no broken valve springs, or several years of running on one set of springs---I have had reports of looong-time use of one set of springs in 9- and 10-sec cars.
Lunati's part number is 502B3LUN for that cam on a 108 LSA, you would have to specify you want it on 112 LSA. They grind them 4° advanced, and they work just fine there.

UDHarold

1968 hot rod · Dec 31, 2003

540
Imho since you have rebuilt this motor twice and spent plenty of money and want to have the best roller lifter on the market Bar none.Buy a set of Jesel lifters.When the big boys want the best thats where they go,R&M,WJ,Dodge Motorsports,etc etc.These lifters have been in the winning Dodge vipers in the 24hours of sebring,500 mile offshore,race boats,ProStocks,Arca and Nascar trucks.These are not Cheap,But they are the best. Good Luck

540Hotrod · Dec 31, 2003

Thanks, but I don't feel quite that rich! If I did my little street weenie motor would have lots of better parts!

The last time I saw the price on the "base" set used in a friends twin turbo 6 second Camaro they were in the $1800 range! Then the "real good ones" were in the $3000 range! Out of my league!

I keep hoping the Shubeck style stuff will get to a point where you can "drop them in" without major block work. The concept looks good if he'll make it for regular stuff at a reasonable price.

And just so I'm clear, other than roller lifters dying every once in awhile, the only reason I've had it apart was to change the combo. Nothing broke so far. The first set went about 9000 miles, but the rebuilt ones didn't last as long.

JIM

Wolfplace · Dec 31, 2003

Originally posted by 1968 hot rod:
540
Imho since you have rebuilt this motor twice and spent plenty of money and want to have the best roller lifter on the market Bar none.Buy a set of Jesel lifters.When the big boys want the best thats where they go,R&M,WJ,Dodge Motorsports,etc etc.These lifters have been in the winning Dodge vipers in the 24hours of sebring,500 mile offshore,race boats,ProStocks,Arca and Nascar trucks.These are not Cheap,But they are the best. Good Luck

=
Gotta agree 100% about the quality but you are talking about Approx $560 jobber for Red Zones vs $2000+ for jesels not to mention a wee bit of work to put them in

Of course if you happen to have

an uncle named Trump,,,,,,,

69ttop502 · Dec 31, 2003

Hey Jim, you are busted pal. Caught you over here on the other side. I'm tellin' everyone over at CF.

Seriously though, great thread here. I would be interested though to hear an answer to a question in your original post about the latest in flat tappets and if you can approach close to your level of horsepower with one. Also curious on the Mushroom lifter cams and the Shubeck stuff as well. Bill.

1968 hot rod · Dec 31, 2003

Mike
Jesel makes a drop in lifter they might run about 1700 or so.The expensive ones are the dog bones.I wonder how much it cost for 540 to repair his engine twice after buying a set of the less expensive lifters.Lifters are the most stressed part in a engine.As 540 has already found out this twice

Wolfplace · Jan 1, 2004

Originally posted by 1968 hot rod:
Mike
Jesel makes a drop in lifter they might run about 1700 or so.The expensive ones are the dog bones.I wonder how much it cost for 540 to repair his engine twice after buying a set of the less expensive lifters.Lifters are the most stressed part in a engine.As 540 has already found out this twice

=
Me thinks you need to reread Jim's post

I believe he said he hasn't hurt any parts except the lifters.
Again, I agree Jesel is arguably the best lifter out there but for $1700 you can buy 3 sets of Isky Red Zones of which we have had zero failures & some are in some fairly serious engines.
Or you could buy two set & cycle them each season / year (we have a few customers that do this) & be way ahead
I also do not think you will see any apreciable difference in lifter life in these type of applications over the Isky Red Zones or Severe Duty Crowers with the oiling option with Jesels.
Now if we are referring to an engine with an inch + of valve lift & over 1000lbs of spring pressure,,,,,,,,,,,
In any event,, I tend to think the Jesel is not really a viable choice given what we are talking about here

1968 hot rod · Jan 1, 2004

Mike,
What do you feed the wolves,or do they take care of that themselves

.731 lift and a 2000 mile trip is pretty intense some books,usually when a lifter goes it takes out the camshaft and whatever else gets scored up by the debris.But its his money.
Happy New year everyone!!!!

Wolfplace · Jan 1, 2004

They each get a hind quarter of raw chicken daily along with hi protien dog food & they tend to eat a bit,,,,we go through about 120#'s chicken & 120#'s of dog food a month

Here is Nikolos enjoying his Thanksgiving Turkey

Gotta raise my shop rates

HAPPY NEW YEAR ALL

540Hotrod · Jan 1, 2004

68 Hot Rod...

I appreciate your take on all this. I do believe the lightweight Jesels are the strongest thing out there. No doubt..

But I would seriously have my doubts that they would do any better overall in a street type application. If you are running 3000-4000+ rpm all the time or maybe 7000+ I think the oiling situation is taken care of regardless of lifters. There is enough oil splash to take care of them. They have better metal I'm sure that can withstand the ungodly spring pressure and fast ramps, but if they starve for oil at low speeds, they're toast too. Then when you get into the aluminum body stuff, the increased clearance required with them beats up the lifter bores. So here we go installing bushings and replacing them on a regular basis.

I think we're talking about two different worlds regardless of cost. Lots of race parts are great overkill on the street and last forever. Others are fragile when used in an environment they aren't designed for. Race type solid roller cams are in that league. They are designed to run less than a minute at a time including burnout, race and driving back to the pits. Or maybe run all day at high rpm with lots of oil on them.

We have a few choices. Run them and make it a "trailer baby" that you call a street car. Or run them and develop a maintenance program. The std is to replace/rebuild the lifters once a year like Mike said. The improved Isky or Crower ones apparently seem to do much better with direct oil feed to them.

Or we can use street roller cams with mild lobes that last a longer time and give up some power.

Or we can use flat tappets and give up more power. Especially if we use one that is "mild" enough to live for a while too.

I keep hoping that technology will develop something that will allow us to have the best of both.

And so far over the last few year I've had the cost of the initial set of lifters..maybe $280 or so that went 9000 miles and then the cost of Comp rebuilding them for $150 or so where one of them died after 2000 miles or so. Luckily no cam or block damage, but I understand what you are saying. I've had friends tear up blocks when they went too far. But I'm just not sure spending 2K on those lifters would solve the street longevity issue. I don't think they are designed for that purpose. They are designed to be lighweight and tough enough to handle mega loads and high rpm. No guarantee on low speed stuff. I still think the Shubeck type deal is the future for this type stuff once it's more common.

So back to the original question...anyone know anyone running a flat tappet cam in a 540 type pump gas deal that could approach 800 hp/7000+ rpm and still live for awhile? Would longevity be any better with a cam that stout? I'm doubting it....

JIM

Wolfplace · Jan 1, 2004

Jim,
Sorry about wandering off with Wolf stuff on your post

I agree with you on the flat tappet issue
I think flat tappet cams can be made to live at 7000+ & make good power but not the power of a roller.
I also think even if you could get a flat tappet lobe that makes the power your are making with your combo it isn't going to live very long.
First off you just cannot open a valve with a flat tappet at the rate you can with a roller.
Before someone brings it up, I will,,,a roller is actually slower to .050-.100 but from there on it is in a different league

Just my uneducated opinions

HAPPY NEW YEAR

1968 hot rod · Jan 1, 2004

All jesel lifters pressure feed the needle rollers ( and have been for 7 or 8 years)which is most important at idle.The lifter bodys are steel and are coated.The guts are aluminum so to speak.My set came out of a 500 mile offshore race boat(the kind with 2 BBC motors in them)they look new,no scores in the body lifter roller's look new.I was very surprised at how good they looked.

1968 hot rod · Jan 1, 2004

Mike
That wolf don't look too happy with you in the pic.

540 like I said its your money,sometimes street applications are harder on parts than racing.The drop in lifters require no brass bushings.Their record speaks for themselves all you have to do is call 901-732-3154 and ask your questions.Good Luck and Happy New Year

540Hotrod · Jan 1, 2004

Thanks.. I didn't realize they all had pressure fed axles. Sounds good.

Just out of curiosity....what did you have to pay for a used set if you don't mind? Always looking for options.

How much street use does yours get? How much cam and spring? I was speaking with another guy and we both were looking for some "real world" info on some success stories of folks putting lots of street miles on this stuff.

10.0's at 131 is stout! Wish I could get those 60's!

JIM

UDHarold? 540 Cam recommendation?

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