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The 502 Is Back Together - Dyno Results and Video....

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#21 ·
Patrick....good to have you. I think I can speak for all and say we would love to have you here.
There is a ton of guys on here using your stuff.
Hopefuly you will come around more :hurray:


Hmmmm....I wonder what Chris will have to say.

I have one of Chris's cams....and a Pro-systems carb. Can't say a bad thing about either. :thumbsup:

Drilled out IAB per Pats rec. for a rich cruise condition. Haven't touched it since.
I did add jet last fall, with only a 4* split and same heads. HP1000 84/92....86/94 now, but it has been in cooler air. THe car picked up mph with the added jet.

Those AFR's flow alot of exhaust.
 
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#22 ·
How much lash on those lifters ?
I love the sound of those Hyd rollers with solids on them ! :)

Revability(sp) is real nice too.

Nice setup, congrats !
 
#23 ·
When Dave contacted me on this build he wanted good street manners as this is a show car and wanted to spin it no more then around 6000 rpm with a goal to run mid 10's in this '56 and all on pump gas. Based on AFR's flow numbers, the CID, and the rpm range I told Dave with a mild cam we could achieve low to mid 600HP range. This engine is not much different then alot of the marine stuff I do.

I professionally disagree with Pro Systems on camshaft. As the the combo hit the goal that we set. The AFR's have very high I/E ratio and based on this combo not going very high in the rpm range it doesn't require that much split. I have seen many cammed combo's with AFR's and tight duration splits at .050" that make extremely good power. Some single pattern stuff.
 
#24 ·
blue66 said:
Patrick....good to have you. I think I can speak for all and say we would love to have you here.
There is a ton of guys on here using your stuff.
Hopefuly you will come around more :hurray:........
Click to expand...
Ditto!

I expect to become another VERY satisfied Prosystems customer soon - when Mike is ready to break out the Northern California incense and crystal ball and have a sayonce session with you on which of your 4150's will work best with our combo. :D

Can't wait!!
 
#25 ·
We had ProSystems build a 1050 Dominator for a 534" motor filled out the sheet as required.
Got the carb back ran like FI. Being a street driven car drivability was important to some extent.

We used an UltraDyne hyd roller 255 @ .050 .650 lift on a 110 sep. SINGLE PATTERN
Nothing was suggested as to the cam being a single pattern from ProSystems at that time.

We went ahead gleefully ignorant of any potential weakness in the cam dept. and rans 9`s @ 136 MPH weighing 3700 LBS...93 octane gas.

Heads were Dart 325`s with decent exhaust ports btw.
One reason, in my honestly humble opinion, that the car ran so well with that cam could possibly be due to an X-pipe that some people believe could even OVER SCAVAGE the exhaust port (???)
No matter, we were very pleased with the ProSystems carb and would do it again.
 
#26 ·
I went back and pulled a bunch of files of dynoed engine build ups. I have a lot of records and results.

Typically the AFR 305's liked about 6-8 more on the exhaust side for duration.

I pulled Dave Murphys file and although he did not achieve his original goal according to his techsheet of 650 h.p. I just still have to stand by my years of data of customers combinations and dyno results and state:

Playing the averages, the AFR 305 will want about 6-8 more degrees of exhaust duration. This will square the percentages back up, then you can get some jet in the carb and it will burn some fuel and make more power. Anytime the exhaust number got closer than that, power fell off and jet requirement came down.

I am not saying this is the situation we are seeing here, but the facts match up.

Maybe there is something going on with the cam to help the exhaust that I am unaware of, BUT we still can't get any jet in the carb.

I would like to see a 250-258 cam in it with about .650 lift.

I have one combo in my file with a 502 at 10.2:1 compression and AFR 305s just like Daves, that setup that made 668 h.p. and ran 9.90's in a 3100 lb car.
 
#27 ·
cstraub said:
When Dave contacted me on this build he wanted good street manners as this is a show car and wanted to spin it no more then around 6000 rpm with a goal to run mid 10's in this '56 and all on pump gas. Based on AFR's flow numbers, the CID, and the rpm range I told Dave with a mild cam we could achieve low to mid 600HP range. This engine is not much different then alot of the marine stuff I do.

I professionally disagree with Pro Systems on camshaft. As the the combo hit the goal that we set. The AFR's have very high I/E ratio and based on this combo not going very high in the rpm range it doesn't require that much split. I have seen many cammed combo's with AFR's and tight duration splits at .050" that make extremely good power. Some single pattern stuff.
Click to expand...
Hey Chris, How about flow difference between the intake manifold and exhaust ? The AFR heads are flowed without a manifold or exhaust so that we may be able to call a "static flow number" {stupid wording by myself} and what would be the difference between the flow % if his intake and his exhaust system were flowed?
 
#28 ·
dirtlips408 said:
That sucks to here about Prosystems carb....I just ordered one a few days ago....
Click to expand...
I dont car who builds the carburetor, If the rest of the package doesnt work the carburetor is not gonna fix the problem

When Pro Stock engines changed to VP fuel it was not just tuning, They actually re designed the whole program {combustion chambers etc}
 
#29 ·
winmon said:
Just got my 502 back from the shop. I was getting a little bored with the basically stock combo, so I decided I needed more power :D Even though the motor only had about 2000 miles on it, I had it gone completely through, plate honed, new rings, all new bearings, polished crank and balanced. Monday was dyno day. Since I had Pro Systems go through my Holley 850 (it was built to suit my combo), we figured tuning/dyno time would be short. The builder first broke the motor in with a basic BG Demon 750. With no tuning, just breaking in time, the motor put out 592hp. So after break in, we threw the Pro Systems Holley 850 (flowing now at 920cfm) on and expected a nice increase in hp/tq. Well, we LOST 10hp!!! So, we played around with the jetting and after 8 different size jetting changes, all we gained was a few hp . Called Patrick at Pro Systems and all he could recommend was to change the jets, which we did. The builder then recommended putting on a BG Mighty Demon 850 (he did not have a Holley on hand) to see if that changed anything. The 850 Demon jumped the hp up about 20hp on the first pull with it. We then played with the jetting in it and finally started getting somewhere. The 2nd to last pull with the jetting set to 78/82, we did get the highest hp of the day, 633 @ 6200rpm (peak tq was 589 @ 4900rpm), but it just did not sound as good as it should. We made 1 more pull with the jetting changed to 78/82. The motor sounded much better this run. The peak hp was a little lower at 628 @ 6100 rpm, but the tq increased to 592 @ 5000rpm. The entire 5000-6000rpm range was quite a bit better also. After 6 hrs and 20 runs, we ended up just leaving the BG carb on it for now.


Here are the #'s on the 2nd to last run...

Image


And the final run. This is where we left it.....

Image


And the video. This was a earlier run...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnCqnPU8nz0

Image


Here is the new combo..

* Cam - Hyd. Roller 248/250 - .643/.603 110 LSA - Designed by Chris Straub, THANK YOU Chris!!
* Lifters - Morel Solid Roller .842"
* Heads - AFR 305's w/ CNC Chamber Option, 110cc
* C/R - 10:1
* Intake - Edelbrock Victor Jr. w/ 1" Wilson spacer
* Carb - BG Mighty Demon 850

Now I just need to get the motor back into the car and get it out to the track :D
Click to expand...
I assume your running 1.7 rockers? Tune the engine with the 1.7 rockers on the dyno with the Pro Systems and then switch to 1.8 rockers only on the exhaust, If it picks up power you know you need more duration and a little more lift to "Equalize" the intake and exhaust system

Other than AFR ratio, Did anybody compare the plugs to the exhaust ports? This should be done no matter if the engine is in the car, on a dyno etc...... , O2 sensors are a TOOL, Ever seen a torque wrench off, or a Snap-On scanner that spits out a code for MAP sensor and its not the MAP sensor? The tools point you in the direction you need to go, You must drive in that direction to fix the problem
 
#30 ·
trmnatr said:
I assume your running 1.7 rockers? Tune the engine with the 1.7 rockers on the dyno with the Pro Systems and then switch to 1.8 rockers only on the exhaust, If it picks up power you know you need more duration and a little more lift to "Equalize" the intake and exhaust system

Other than AFR ratio, Did anybody compare the plugs to the exhaust ports? This should be done no matter if the engine is in the car, on a dyno etc...... , O2 sensors are a TOOL, Ever seen a torque wrench off, or a Snap-On scanner that spits out a code for MAP sensor and its not the MAP sensor? The tools point you in the direction you need to go, You must drive in that direction to fix the problem
Click to expand...
I do think we have a cam timing problem.
I would try a "Cam doctor" just to see how close the cam is to the cam card.
Has anyone tried different lash settings,or cam timing??
I would caution any one about trying to "read plugs".
Just about every brand of gasoline either pump gas or racing gas may cause the plugs to appear different.
Even by going to a different octane rating of the same brand may cause the plugs to look different because because of the gas additives or burn rates of the gasoline.
If you ask ten people what "color" plugs should be you will get ten differernt answers.
 
#31 ·
Does this set of 305's have the CNC chamber option?

Also, you notice how it lost 16 ft/lbs of TQ from 6100 to 6200 (only a 100 RPM move)....dreaded valve control issues common to any BBC performance motor running a hydraulic roller. Its off 35 ft/lbs by 6400 (only a couple of hundred RPM later)....same reason.

This engine with a similar spec'ed solid street roller would have likely made 40 more HP with no other changes and 75 more past peak (alot more usable RPM potential).

The only place I advocate a hydraulic roller in a BBC (with good high flowing heads) is if the engine is turning a propeller....not a set of rims and tires (the reason being most marine applications except for the all out drag stuff usually limit their engine speeds to 5500-6000 RPM's....just shy of where valve control issues start really creeping into the picture.)

You spend all this money on big airflow and give the shortblock a fresh set of athletes lungs and a new lease on life and then you cripple it with valve control problems by installing a hydraulic roller....its simply counter productive unles your just building a cruiser and could care less about dyno numbers.

I know alot of folks dont want to deal with any maintenance, but its just worth so much more power that you have to give it strong consideration.

Anyway....solid roller rant is OVER.....LOL

Still curious about the CNC chamber option??

Tony


PS....the AFR 305's have a fairly high exhaust to intake relationship....I think Chris's cam choice for a mild cruiser was right there. It helped build all the low end TQ this engine generated due to less overlap from an un-necessary earlier exhaust opening. Also would have improved idle quality slightly.
 
#32 ·
Tony Mamo @ AFR said:
Does this set of 305's have the CNC chamber option?

Also, you notice how it lost 16 ft/lbs of TQ from 6100 to 6200 (only a 100 RPM move)....dreaded valve control issues common to any BBC performance motor running a hydraulic roller. Its off 35 ft/lbs by 6400 (only a couple of hundred RPM later)....same reason.

This engine with a similar spec'ed solid street roller would have likely made 40 more HP with no other changes and 75 more past peak (alot more usable RPM potential).

The only place I advocate a hydraulic roller in a BBC (with good high flowing heads) is if the engine is turning a propeller....not a set of rims and tires (the reason being most marine applications except for the all out drag stuff usually limit their engine speeds to 5500-6000 RPM's....just shy of where valve control issues start really creeping into the picture.)

You spend all this money on big airflow and give the shortblock a fresh set of athletes lungs and a new lease on life and then you cripple it with valve control problems by installing a hydraulic roller....its simply counter productive unles your just building a cruiser and could care less about dyno numbers.

I know alot of folks dont want to deal with any maintenance, but its just worth so much more power that you have to give it strong consideration.

Anyway....solid roller rant is OVER.....LOL

Still curious about the CNC chamber option??

Tony


PS....the AFR 305's have a fairly high exhaust to intake relationship....I think Chris's cam choice for a mild cruiser was right there. It helped build all the low end TQ this engine generated due to less overlap from an un-necessary earlier exhaust opening. Also would have improved idle quality slightly.
Click to expand...
Tony, this was a hydro roller core but does have solid roller lifters.
 
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#34 ·
Tony Mamo @ AFR said:
You spend all this money on big airflow and give the shortblock a fresh set of athletes lungs and a new lease on life and then you cripple it with valve control problems by installing a hydraulic roller....its simply counter productive unles your just building a cruiser and could care less about dyno numbers.
Click to expand...
Rafel?? Mike?? Where ya'll at? :waving: :disco: :p
 
#35 ·
We used std issue 845-16 Comp hyd roller lifters on the 534" motor. Again 9`s @ 3700 lbs race weight something was working. That was with 3.73 gears .

Trapping 6700 RPM @ 136 MPH running 9.97 Et with a pathetically weak 1.47 60 Ft.

Motor seemed to be hanging in there with those Hyd lifters.

What`s the potential HP figures using those numbers.. can any one guess ?

I`m all for a hyd roller in a dual purpose car all the way..count me in :thumbsup:
 
#36 ·
Brian Gooding I did not forget about your afr 305 headed 496 c.i. in this combination. It has one of Chris' cams in it.

Chris ground a 262/271 profile. Good choice Chris.

I know you made about 700 h.p. on that combo and are running an almost exact calibration of the carb I set up for Mr. Murphy. You are also running the proper jetting and everything is where it should be. The reason I excluded you from the list is I was unsure of how streetable the 262/271 cam is for Mr. Murphy. But 700 h.p. is kind of good too. :thumbsup:

Thanks.

P.S. Sorry for all these brief posts, I am down with the flu today...and I wake up for a few moments and do what I can and lay back down.

Patrick James
PRO SYSTEMS
 
#37 · (Edited)
ProSystems said:
Brian Gooding I did not forget about your afr 305 headed 496 c.i. in this combination. It has one of Chris' cams in it.

Chris ground a 262/271 profile. Good choice Chris.

I know you made about 700 h.p. on that combo and are running an almost exact calibration of the carb I set up for Mr. Murphy. You are also running the proper jetting and everything is where it should be. The reason I excluded you from the list is I was unsure of how streetable the 262/271 cam is for Mr. Murphy. But 700 h.p. is kind of good too. :thumbsup:

Thanks.

P.S. Sorry for all these brief posts, I am down with the flu today...and I wake up for a few moments and do what I can and lay back down.

Patrick James
PRO SYSTEMS
Click to expand...
Hey Patrick.....sorry to hear about the flu :(
My cam from Chris is 267/271.....
It drives on the street fine, and runs pretty well down the strip too. :)
 
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#38 ·
I went back read the e-mail from Dave on this build. " I want something to run mid to high 10's in my '56 and have good street manners as I want to drive this thing."

My theory on this is put a real good head on it and then we don't need alot of cam to achieve power. I told Dave I thought we could make 650 out of it. I missed it .. it is 632HP.

Also for what Dave wanted to do we don't have to turn this "puppy". I set peak HP at 6000 rpm SO, it should fall off no matter what kind of cam it is because the duration is based to support it to that rpm.

Dave wasn't after max power. . he wanted power to get him to mid 10's. With basically a 600/600 engine and the suspension that Dave has I feel the car will hit his goal. Could we have stuck more cam in it and made it a dyno queen... yes. Did we make in excess of 600HP on pump gas, decent idle and pull 12 inchs of vac at idle.. . .yes.

Combo wise Dave seems very happy with what I have done for him. If the customer is happy then I am happy.
 
#39 ·
Chris,

Maybe you are a better cam grinder than you thought.

If Brian Goodings 267/271 cam makes almost 70 more h.p. and is almost exactly the same combo, the jetting makes sense on the carbs AND it drives on the street proper.

Remember this signal percentage effects part throttle operation as well.

So staying in the proper ranges effects everything...even the 100 cfm smaller demon carb is 6 numbers below its baseline setting).

Maybe we should have that cam in the car, then the car would want the proper size carb for the application. A 650 h.p. 502 is gonna want a 900 plus cfm carb.

Based on Brians combo results, you get free power, you can go back to the proper jetting, the signal ratio is correct and it has nice street manners.

Thats a win-win.

I'd consider it.

Patrick James
PRO SYSTEMS
 
#40 ·
Tony Mamo @ AFR said:
Does this set of 305's have the CNC chamber option?

Also, you notice how it lost 16 ft/lbs of TQ from 6100 to 6200 (only a 100 RPM move)....dreaded valve control issues common to any BBC performance motor running a hydraulic roller. Its off 35 ft/lbs by 6400 (only a couple of hundred RPM later)....same reason.

This engine with a similar spec'ed solid street roller would have likely made 40 more HP with no other changes and 75 more past peak (alot more usable RPM potential).

The only place I advocate a hydraulic roller in a BBC (with good high flowing heads) is if the engine is turning a propeller....not a set of rims and tires (the reason being most marine applications except for the all out drag stuff usually limit their engine speeds to 5500-6000 RPM's....just shy of where valve control issues start really creeping into the picture.)

You spend all this money on big airflow and give the shortblock a fresh set of athletes lungs and a new lease on life and then you cripple it with valve control problems by installing a hydraulic roller....its simply counter productive unles your just building a cruiser and could care less about dyno numbers.

I know alot of folks dont want to deal with any maintenance, but its just worth so much more power that you have to give it strong consideration.

Anyway....solid roller rant is OVER.....LOL

Still curious about the CNC chamber option??

Tony


PS....the AFR 305's have a fairly high exhaust to intake relationship....I think Chris's cam choice for a mild cruiser was right there. It helped build all the low end TQ this engine generated due to less overlap from an un-necessary earlier exhaust opening. Also would have improved idle quality slightly.
Click to expand...
Tony, I posted this question to Chris but You are the one that this question would be best directed too

How about flow difference between the intake manifold and exhaust ? The AFR heads are flowed without a manifold or exhaust so that we may be able to call a "static flow number" {stupid wording by myself} and what would be the difference between the flow % if his intake and his exhaust system were flowed?
 
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