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zachscc

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
I have been using 80 to rough in my mud and then 180 to finish the glaze after it is roughed lightly with 80 is it worth getting some 36 to start with?

I am applying over epoxy and don't want to tear up the surounding epoxy too mch more than I have to.
 
That all depends on the affected area .. I use a gear drive mud slinger 8" to SHAPE the filler .
will mostly use 36 velco green. but on occasion 80 if there is a radi oredge and it's not a LARGE worked panel.
If your roughing in,, You shoud not be tearing up the surounding area... with either 36 or 80. 36 is to get the shape rough level.. 80 is to finializzz and finish countour and 180 to smooth the 80's shap and blend into your surounding panel..
 
You will get different answers. I no longer use 36 grit at all. Yes i use it time to time for paint removal but for sanding filler it DONT use 36 at all.
My main weapon for rough in is a 8" mud hog with 80 grit. It makes fast work of filler.

Personally I get the same results starting with 80 grit as I would have gotten with 36. Starting out with either is just fine, nothing wrong with 36 or 80...Eric
 
As usual, Eric and I are on the same page.
Must be the "Midwestern" thing. Or we have too much time on our hands.
I avoid both 36 and 40 grit.
Stick with 80, finish with 150.
My preference, is to have the panel straight enough that you can use ONE (1) coat of chemical filler, cut with 80 grit.
Next application is ONE (1) coat of polyester glaze, finish with 150.
Apply Two coats of catalyzed primer surfacer, block with 240 grit. Dust a guide coat over the primer surfacer before blocking.
If you like, apply one more coat of primer surfacer, guide coat, reblock. Can use 240 or 320, depending on Paint Manufacturer's recomendation.
This system will produce a straight panel, minimum film build, no pin holes missed, no sand scratch swelling.
On restoration repairs, I strip all original finish, so all products are compatible. No feather edging into old finish is required.
On welded joints or areas where a deeper fill may be required, I will use a product like Metal to Metal or Aluma-lead for first fill. Cut with 80 grit.
The only time I will use the coarser grit (36-40) is to knock off the very top of filler surface, cut through the oily glaze. Then use 80 grit for the real work. The idea is that there should no 36 or 40 scratches in the filler remaining, after 80 grit use, prior to prime.
This is not the fastest way, however it will consistantly produce superior results.
Karl
 
I have always used 36-40 grit on an inline or 8" orbital first. It is the only way (for me) to get the panel straight. If any high spots show up then fix that and repete with 36-40 grit. When panel is straight and no metal shows, hit it with 80 grit to knock down the 36 scratches and then fill prime. Then use a long block with 80 again with a guide coat if it is staight prime it again then use a long block with 360 grit or wet sand. Every time I sand I use as long of a block as I can.
You need to get away from the 180 grit paper. Its an extra step you dont need to go throgh. Fill Primer will fill 80 grit scratches easily.
More than one way to do anything. This way works for me.
 
Sorry 540 but i need to steer him to use at least 180 before priming for a repair to last as long as possible / also limits the posibility of scratches or shrinkage showing in final product, if not now maybe later.
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Like I said more than one way to do anything.
I dont see a reason to do the 180 if you will be blocking with 360 or wet sanding with 600. Ive not had problems with shrinking espsecialy when using a catalized primer. I like BASF products, but use PPG also.
 
540 - I was trying to remove any chance of error for a novice bodyman. i am sure you can achieve the same results but you have a process that works for you and you should stick with it ! I did not mean to sound critical of your method. proper application of the filler and primer is also very critical as well as the quality of the products used!THANKS !
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Yes I do agree you can go to primer over filler that has been cut with 80 grit and not see any problems if the products being used don't shrink later or swell when the topcoats are applied, but not everyone uses your products. There's definately more than one way to skin a cat, polyester primers have been filling 36 and 80 grit scratches for years without any problems, and I'm sure urethanes can do the same if allowed to cure the time needed. But to avoid any possibility of having problems with scratches showing up I always finish off my filler work with a minimum of 180grit, reguardless of what product is going over the filler-why risk it? I've seen all too often what happens when guys don't finish with a finer grit, scratch city. When I started doing bodywork only laquer primer was used and 180 grit was risky if you wanted a good repair.
 
I can see you point in theory, but again, more than one way. The main point of his question was should he use 80 or 36 to rough in. I say you will not get the staighting effect if you use 80. Do the rough work with 36-40. Then use whatever method you want after that. Im sure you will be fine either way.

70convt396 Thanks.
 
As for finishing off filler many manufactors are suggesting 180 even up to 320 for finishing off filler.

Using 180 greatly reduces the risk of scratches showing back up. Poor flash times, improper gun setup etc all play a role in primer shrink back.
If you remove the scratches in the first place then you dont need to worry about them showing up later.

I would hate to see a panel primed with PPG's k36 over 80 grit two months later :eek:
 
Discussion starter · #15 ·
Thanks for all the input. I got a new book "Advanced Custom Painting Techniques" By John Kosmosci. He is the HOK paint guy and the book was written in 2003. He does two complete's in the book and always uses 36 followed by 80 "just to knock the tops off the filler and then primes, blocks with 80 and then primes again and wets with 400. Turns out beautiful but then again he is a pro.
 
I wont disagree with the 36 vs 80 to start with, as I mentioned early either is fine.
But I disagree with finishing with 80, priming blocking with 80 again.

Not all primers can you get away with this, PPG's bread and butter the canned sh!t they call K36 you CAN NOT get away with this.
But with Dupont's uroprime, 2 coats will fill 80 grit no problems.

The difference between the HOK guy and a beginner is YEARS of knowledge and experience.
Improper gun setup, improper flash times, poor air flow, wrong reducer selected ALL come into play when it comes down to sand scratches appearing later down the road.
You abuse one of these factors and you increase your chances of swelling.

If you finish it off with 180 you greatly reduce the chance of swelling later down the road.

Finishing with 180 takes me no longer then it would with 80 grit. But can save me many hours later down the road.
Every PPG primer in my tech manual says sand with 180-240. Just my humble opinion on the subject...Eric
 
I agree with Eric, better not to take a chance for such a simple operation. For what it takes to glaze your filler and finish with 180-320 or just finish sand the filler to a finer grit it's just not worth the possiblities of problems down the road. As far as sanding primer with 80 I've done it many times but always applied more guide coat and resanded down to a lower grit. High fill Polyester primers are awesome for this technique, 80 then guide coat, 180 then guide coat, and finish up with whatever you want-wetsand with 400! Many ways to do this stuff, I just don't like taking chances when my name is on it.
 
Kosmoski has given a demo at our shop. Still have the freehand tape layout he did on the wall of one our Prep Stations.
He is a South Mpls. Mn. guy. Knows his paint!
That being said, these are my "Rules to live by"
1. The coarser the grit, the straighter the cut.
2. Filler is for Finishing good body repair, not a substitute for same.
3. Primer-surfacer provides corrosion protection, a conversion coat to metal for topcoats, and filling material for MINOR surface imperfections.
As stated by others any product or material in inexperienced hands will often be asked to perform beyond its limits.
Most of us are offering a similar procedure. Would still suggest that minimizing the depth of scratches, that primer is required to fill, is a good plan.
Karl
 
Just aadding my .02 again... Yes you can bury 80 grit with todays products,, But as stated Shrinking can come back to haunt you.. Why take the chance... if it's a repair panel ,your going to palm sand the edges, whay not do the intire area with your 180 B-4 prime ?
If it's a striped or new DENTED factory or after market panels ( Especaily our chevelle stuff )
they need some metal and filler work to pass the palm glid over inspection....
That My .02... but the orginial was "ROUGHING mud in 36 or 80 ? "

Not a set in stone rule,, depends on the area
flat, curved, small or LARGE... I no longer use a cheese grader file.. I was taught to use a 9" high speed grinder with 36 grit (OLD SCHOOL)
I now only use my trusty 8" Mud Slinger (gear driv) or Hutchenson flat file with 36 for 90% roughing in the shape .
Finish shape and finish forming with 80.....
 
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