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problem with my 66 after getting it from painter

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SLOPAR

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Hi group. It has been a while since I have last posted anything. I finally got the chevelle back after 6 months and I seem to have a major problem. The car was finished in 99 Toyota super white. The car turned out pretty good and as I was expecting, I have to do some detail work to put the car to my satisfaction. But here is the new problem. It was painted with base/clear and every paint product used on it was Sherwin Williams. This is the product of choice by my painter and he is very comfortable with it. I got it back and let it sit for a month before I started doing any work to it. Well now there are spots on the car which are turning a nicotine stain type yellow under the clear coat. It has no pattern to it at all. I went by the paint shop today and he wants to see it ASAP and that makes me feel good. He says that this is the first time this has ever happened to him and he sprayed this car as he does all his other projects. He assured me he mixed the 2 gallons of base together so that rules any of that out I suppose. The only thing that concerms me is he buffed this car 2 days after it was sprayed and the compund he used is of a yellow base. I see alot of guys on here are more than backyard painters and would like some input as to what could have happened and if you have ever seen this before. The bad part now will be making repairs to it. I have a ton of sweat equity in this as well as 10,000.00 in the body and paint so any input would be great so I can get a feel of what is going on here.

Thanks a bunch,
John Weaver
 
#2 ·
I doubt very much that any buffing materials would discolor the basecoat. It shouldn't even be able to get to it through the clear. Sounds more like bleed through from beneath. What was the original color and paint type underneath and was a "sealer" coat used after all the primer/filler/etc prior to the basecoat application?
 
#3 ·
Think back very carefully. Is there any relationship of the stains to the locations of chemical fillers or glazing putty?
Years ago we had some staining problems with lighter colors. Much of that was traced back to the filler products being used.
The Super Paints were not always compatible with the fillers. Also if fillers were improperly catalyzed, this could result in staining.

This is not a "for sure" but one of the many possibilities.

Karl
 
#4 ·
I tend to agree with karl. the Bleed through is from a filler/glazing product...
The big question I think I would ask is if he applied a sealer under the base coat...
A sealer product not a value shade or a stump color of base coat, he had from other jobs.

As for compound casuin it it. IMO.... NO WAY
buff most jobs in a production shop, the next day... with no ill effects..
 
#5 ·
sounds like bleed through to me also :( cheap filler, red lead in a tube(when used as glaze), and or no sealer used between primer and base color are the main culprits.....I've seen a few cases of it actually bleeding through sealer before but not very often.....sand it seal it (at least once LOL) and base/clear it again
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Peace
 
Discussion starter · #6 ·
Thanks for all the replys. I read all the responses this morning and I think I got some good responses. I talked to the body shop this morning and got it over to him this afternoon. He did not seal the primer but he also said that he never seals his primer. He used the same technique on this car as he does all his others and has never had this problem. He was amazed at how the car looked from only 2 months ago when it left from there. He thinks that maybe he did not give the base enough time to dry but I question that because the jamb areas are the worst spots and they cured for over 24 hours before applying the clearcoat. The paint rep said it was something I put on the car but that is what you can expect from people that do not want to back up their product. The bottom line is the car has to be repainted and that is very frustrating considering this is a frame off job and I am of the personal opinion that the quality of the car will now be compromised. But I have to give credit to the body shop in that they want it right back to square it up. The best way to describe it taking a picture off of a whte wall
in a house with people that smoke in it. It has a nicotine try discoloration to it and just makes no sense.

Thanks again everyone,
John Weaver
 
#8 ·
Originally posted by SLOPAR:
The paint rep said it was something I put on the car but that is what you can expect from people that do not want to back up their product. John Weaver
Click to expand...
You almost lost me with this comment. The paint rep sees the exact same products at every shop he services. He knows that there are hundreds of thousands of shops all over the country using the very same products. These products are made in many hundreds of gallons at a time. If something was wrong with the product there would be MANY other shops with the same problem. He KNOWS that the shop did something wrong. This is not an educated guess, this is FACT. I have to wonder why he didn't have "some" idea of what was wrong. But if he said there is nothing wrong with the product, for goodness sakes believe it.

When I was repping, I found that there are three basic causes for 99.9% of the problems we encounter as a painter or rep. This is the product was applied in some way that trapped solvents. This could be just applying it too heavy, too much over lap, not enough flash time, gun not properly set up, too slow of reducer, etc. Or that the substrate was sensitive to the product when applied as in it was sanded too thin, or it's substrate was not properly sanded. Or that the substrate was not sanded properly.
That may seem over simplistic, but that is it. The detective work came to finding out exactly what the painter did. Most of the time it was like being a cop, most painters DIDN'T WANT TO KNOW what they did wrong it appeared.
Anyway, your door jambs being the place where most of the problem is found is all I need to hear. The clear was applied too heavy. End of story, it is human nature to apply the paint a little wetter on places like the jambs.

Now, on the outsides of the body, it is most likely happening where too panels meet or on the tops of the fenders where body lines create "valleys" and places like that where film thickness will be greater.

I would also put money on it that if you look real close where this is happening the top of the clear is shrunk up and "grainy" looking.

Go out and take a look at the car and let me know if I am on the right track.
 
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#9 ·
I can`t imagine not using a good sealer over the primer.I tried it once in 45 years of painting cars, and will never do that again.


"He did not seal the primer but he also said that he never seals his primer"

Troy-Curt
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#10 ·
I sounded a bit cocky in my last post. I am saying that it is the clear being applied too heavy IF the information posted is true. IF there is a good film thickness of urethane primer under the base, and IF there is nothing else "funny" going on like the guy painted something else before the base. You would be amazed at what a guy will do and then deny.

IF there is not a good film of urethane primer under the base then all bets are off. If it is only in the jambs, then I would put grease (the jambs are full of it) would be my next "guess". But if it is happening on the out side, and there is a good film of urethane primer under the base, the clear is it.


Troy-curt, I havn't used sealer in years IF there is a FULL covering of the panel in urethane primer. There is just no reason what so ever to use a sealer IF the panel has a complete, uniform film thickness of urethane primer. In fact, you will have fewer problems if you paint in this way. There is less texture, less chances for something to shrink, less chances for you to try to "cover" something with sealer that you should have fixed and primed, that sort of thing.

Sanding areas too thin, or not completely priming panels can cause problems. But if you have COMPLETELY primed panels and you sand them with 400-500, THAT is a perfect substrate.
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#11 ·
This is a big dollar paint job right? Could probably rule out grease as a culprit. Could the body have rusted in spots that weren't taken care of properly and is bleeding through?
I have found that if a company is looking at 100's of thousands of dollars in redues they prolly are not going to come looking for more :D
I just had a problem with a tint that was not fully ground (seedy) I was the first :rolleyes: to have any problem!!
I know some cheaper clears are more likely to yellow, and as Martinsr said where the clear is heaviest it may yellow.
Not sure why, but color always covers better over a wet on wet sealer than a sanded primer,adhesion is better also.I'll stick with sealer :D
If this is a high dollar paint job i would want something better than Sherwin Williams on it,just my personal opinion of course. Mike
 
#12 ·
quote: If this is a high dollar paint job i would want something better than Sherwin Williams on it,just my personal opinion of course. Mike unquote.

Yikes!! vettefella hides behind the couch 'cause the poo-poo may hit the fan soon!! Mike!! Dood!! Did you know MartinSr use to be a SW rep or are you the kind of guy that teases the gorillas when you go to the zoo?
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Discussion starter · #14 ·
Man, this is a tough crowd. As far as the paint rep pointing the finger, I call that ready, fire, aim. Considering the rep is only 10 minutes away, I would think he would atleast have an interest in seeing the car. I agree that %99.9 is never a manufacuring defect, but that .1 comes in somewhere. And if he did do something wrong, it is always nice to know what you did and know that your rep will work with you on it so it does not happen again. It really makes no difference at this point because it will get refinished at his expense. And he is getting it back shortly as he does not want his work on the street looking like that and he is just a conscious person. As far as Sherwin Williams paint, here is an analogy. I am in the printing industry and I hear the same talk about ink. Well, I have seen the highest price ink to the low ball dirty down ink. And in every instance, it all boils down to the Pressmen.And I am sure it boils down the the painter and what he is use to using. But people have to be religious about something, so why not the paint they use to feed their families. I would not call this a high end paint job by no means. I have more time and money in repairing the damaged areas on the car (rust and so forth). I am sure that if I had unlimited funds as it appears some of you guys do on this list, maybe I would have went with some NASA product and sent the car to a place where you leave a deposit of 5 figures and they call you when they want the next installment. Nah, even with this I would not change my painter, the paint, or even the BS of dealing with all this.

MARTINSR- You are dead on the money. You can actually see the grain in the clear and it is trying to dull in a lot of the areas. Another interesting thing is the fenders are a totally different shade from the hood. Maybe he was having a bad day or something. I will relay this information to him though. As for what primer he uses and what is in it, I have no idea. I know he pay good money for his primer as he says the cheapie chuggie primer just adds more work and the quality is poor. He also mixes red oxide and gray primer when he sprays. He says he has been doing it for as long as he can remember because it helps him see imperfections better. and on a side note, anyone who needs to cover something up while in the shop should use SLIME. It has been on the car since January and with just hot water out of the garden hose, all the overspray is coming off. The frame and all of its components looks just a good as the day I sprayed it.

thanks again for all the replys,
John Weaver
 
Discussion starter · #16 ·
thanks Mike. I meant to respond to your question of rust coming through and here is how that scenario goes. I sand all the major panels with the da. Once I got the body down to the hull, I sandblasted it using a black beauty media in all areas where I could not use the da. As far as protecting it. I wiped it down with a metal prep and used a self etching primer. All of this was down immediatley after stripping the metal. The front fenders saw some weather last winter and it never showed a problem. I even had the painter come and lok at what I was doing to make sure he was satisfied and he said it was fine. But that had crossed my mind and I asked him and he has 3 coats of primer over what I did and he felt like something more than discoloration would have occured if it was what I had done. And grease would be out of the question. The car was squeaky clean when he got it.

Thanks again,
John Weaver
 
#17 ·
Mike, you said
"I have found that if a company is looking at 100s of thousands of dollars in redoes they prosy are not going to come looking for more"
I have to say, I worked for S-W for five years. I NEVER saw even the hint of ducking responsibility. Not a single hint, at my level or from any managment. We were instructed to do anything possible to STOP any product problems, at any cost.

Vette, I am not some boot stepping company man for S-W, I couldn't care less if Mike feels S-W doesn't stack up against some other brands, I would have to agree. But it all depends what brands. If there is one thing I learned on that job, the biggies, PPG, DUPOnt, S-W are on the same plain, PERIOD. They are so close in technology it isn't even funny. When you start bringing in the high dollar stuff like Sikkens, Glasurit and the like, well, you get what you pay for. BUT NOT THAT MUCH. I have seen people produce fine day to day collision repairs, to show winning cars with every brand you could imagine. It really comes down to an opinion on which is better. And the painter who swears by one brand and feels all others are junk, in my opinion is no painter. They have fell into a comfort zone that has worked for them. Now they can't use anything else. They are not a painter anymore. This is not a personal jab at Mike or anyone else, I don't know enough about what any of you do to make such a jab. It is just a personal opinion about the hundreds of painters I worked with or tried to in the years as a rep.

John, I have to wonder about the mixing gray and red primer deal. It is sounding a little scary like he is using lacquer primer. That is an old trick with lacquer. Anyway, it would be nice to know that part numbers of the products he is using. That goes for primers as well as clears.
 
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#18 ·
Sounds like the rust theory is out,but as MartinSr said if he was using a lacquer primer it could be a bleed through from the red? Seems possible that even if it is reshot it could happen again :eek:
MartinSr is right, most of the big name paints are the same,enamel systems switched to basecoats.Meaning the tints are all diluted meaning more coats to cover so where are you saving money?I sprayed PPG's worlds and it was really good a true basecoat(polyester base),just like the high dollar European paints.I just don't believe in guys spending months getting cars ready to paint and skimping at the end to save a couple hundred bucks.
I haven't seen it in years but as someone else said it could be filler bleed through also. Mike
Do a demo on a european paint for a week and I guarantee you'll never go back.
Maybe S-W is adding their house paint figures to their totals :D
 
#19 ·
Every paint manufacture out there has good and bad points. Ive sprayed PPG, dupont and S-W, I have likes and dislikes with each one. The thing that I really hated with S-W was that the base required a seprate reducer, its own reducer. I cant tell ya how many times i grabbed the base reducer for my clear or primer.
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Am a PPG guy only cause thats what i learned to sprayed with. I want to try spies hecker paint and the closest place that carries it is Chicago friggin 9hrs away and am highly thinking of road tripping to go a hecker paint school and picking up some paint!!

If S-W is such a joke when why are they still in business?? Last time I knew they were second in sales.
 
#20 ·
This thread has drifted a little.
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Paints are like Cars they are ALL good, for something, depending on your use and expectations.
None of the Paint Companies make JUNK, however they all have their special traits.
Paint Companies are always trying to find a better, faster, less costly product.
Sometimes they do bring products to the market too soon, and we end up being the product testers.
Air emissions standards have also presented many challenges to them.
Back to the "stains"
 
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WayneK
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