[RYU]

I've read many of the suspension posts from Mark, Derek, and many other folks much more informed than I am but I still struggle on exactly what to do with my setup. It's a budget build and trying to spend around <$1500 for front and rear improvements. (Sh*t.. is that even possible??)

Unfortunately, i've read so many issues with buying Hotchkis/Moog springs and the resulting trouble with ride heights. Not all are the same etc... SBC vs BBC spring rate issues. Rear end assemblies that bind. I'm suffering from TMI (too much information!). Likely it's just a case of my brain being too small i'm sure...

Here's what I've done so far with all the work I try to do myself as stress relief.
1. Upgraded to Bilsteins (factory valving)
2. Cherokee Steering Box
3. upgraded to 12" front disc brake conversion from CPP which came with stock spindles (if I remember correctly). i had drums

* Still have the factory SBC springs (read: soggy ride)
* Cut the rear factory springs by 1 coil to even out the ride height
* still have the old worn bushings (read: really soggy ride & steering)
...not much else has been done on the suspension

From my experience here and on pro-touring.com there's a handful of us who don't really want to spend a lot since we don't really demand a lot, but still want to correct the geometry and get rid of most of the bump steer and other issues. i need to replace bushings and ball joints anyway so i was thinking about replacing to new upper A arms, springs and maybe tall BJs but i just don't think I need SC&C stuff due to the costs. Is it really that much more worth it? Will their setup make my 66 ride like a Corvette? All i'm looking for is for it to ride like a Camry - comfortable and stable.

I also don't want infinite amounts of adjustability. Hence, don't feel SC&C is really right for me as nice as the Stg II kit is (nothing against your awesome products Mark)... I would really value something i can install and generally forget about. I get enough headache (and joy) with tweaking my recently purchased NSX but desperately want a cruiser I know my 66 is capable of becoming.

Also would like to keep the window open for future upgrades to air ride later or perhaps coil overs for some ride height adjustability.

I'm considering...
* upper & lower A arms from Heidts or GW
* Howe's tall BJs
* Hotchkis steering rebuild kit
* Also considering a rear sway bar setup from Hotchkis but admittedly only because of the bling factor.

So sorry for the long winded post. I'm looking for opinions on what would be a good low cost option for me.

Appreciate the help!

 

[thunderstruck507]

replace the springs with something stout, put SS type bars on front and rear, and rebuild the worn out parts...

that's basically what I have done right now and it rides great, but I want more aggressive handling from mine

today I went out with a 86 supra, a 70s datsun 280 z, and a new vw golf gti and hung with them driving balls out through the turns

weekend before last I kept up with 2 98+ SS camaros and a Jeep SRT8

I have Speedway 750# springs and adjusters up front, hotchkis rears with 1.5" height spacers, and stock SS sway bars/boxed lowers. My rear uppers are adjustable but I haven't exactly fine tuned anything with them yet. If you add in some decent upper/lowers and stuff up front you should be doing great IMO.

I don't know for sure how fast we were coming around that corner...but it wasn't slow

 

[Matty B]

get the SC&C stage 2+ and keep your stock lower control arms and put some delalum bushings in it. The steering rebuild kit isnt really necessary unless the centerlink or idler arm are totally beat to hell. Otherwise clean em up and paint them. When you changed your steering box you shoulda installed a new pitman arm. If not get a Moog stock replacement. Get new inner and outer tie rod ends and if its in the budget get some of the billet tie rod adjuster sleeves. Grab the Eibach sport springs and a set of single adjustable Varishocks and look arounnd for some stiff sway bars. You wont get away with it for under 1500 but then again neither would the list you posted. It will however get you everything you want plus some extra. The stage 2+ gets you your UCAs plus howe tall bj's. The lowers arent necessary especially not GW arms they dont improve geometry at all. The varishocks will be the biggest improvement and the eibachs have no height or fitment issues that I know of. As far as swaybars go look at the hellwigs front and back.

 

[vrooom3440]

Keep your stock lower control arms. Virtually all aftermarket LCAs are same geometry and provide very little if any benefit. They do drain your wallet though.

Get the SC&C Stage II kit. Yes it is pricey. But it makes important corrections to the geometry that will offset the install cost with reduced tire wear savings. The stock A-body cars love to eat the outer edge right off the front tires. This kit will eliminate most if not all of that problem.

Your bilsteins are likely decent. So pick up a set of 550 lb/in 5"x9.5" stock car springs. Any number of vendors but cheapest I have seen is a vendor on Ebay selling "Black Magic" for about $30 apiece. Add to that a set of tall adjusters. This will provide you all of the height tuning capability of coil overs without either modifying the frame or wearing shocks out with side loads from the springs (regular coil overs require modifying the upper shock mount, QA1 GM coil overs use frame as upper spring mount and thus do not have completely concentric spring/shock location).

Do either poly or rubber bushings for the LCAs up front and check or refresh your steering linkage with OEM replacement parts.

The rear is a little more difficult with the pig tail springs... some have converted to 5"x11" stock car springs though in about a 150 lb/in rate. You can run poly bushings in the lower control arms but do NOT run poly bushings in the upper arms. Get a set of decent adjustable upper arms, the Edelbrock arms are pretty good. IMHO the stock LCAs are fine and aftermarket will make very little difference.

Sway bars are a rather personal taste item.

 

[66ken]

.

Your bilsteins are likely decent. So pick up a set of 550 lb/in 5"x9.5" stock car springs. Any number of vendors but cheapest I have seen is a vendor on Ebay selling "Black Magic" for about $30 apiece. Add to that a set of tall adjusters. This will provide you all of the height tuning capability of coil overs without either modifying the frame or wearing shocks out with side loads from the springs (regular coil overs require modifying the upper shock mount, QA1 GM coil overs use frame as upper spring mount and thus do not have completely concentric spring/shock location).

Excuse my ignorance, but what are "tall adjusters?"

 

[RYU]

Get the SC&C Stage II kit. Yes it is pricey. But it makes important corrections to the geometry that will offset the install cost with reduced tire wear savings. The stock A-body cars love to eat the outer edge right off the front tires. This kit will eliminate most if not all of that problem.

Thanks everyone for your suggestions. With your help i'm able to feel more confident about my purchase list.

vrooom - thanks especially for pointing out a problem I forgot I had about the outer tire wear. I need to install my front UCA replacements soon or else once my new wheels arrive i'll be rubbing the outer fender on angle.

Here's what I plan to do. If someone can spot a hole in my thought process please let me know! So far all of this makes sense as a cheap but effective solution. Again, not the best possible setup but best bang for the buck maybe.

Front
* Keep the stock LCAs but change to rubber bushings
* Upgrade to SC&C Stg II UCAs & BJs
* 550lb/in 5"x9.5" stock springs
* Rubber bushing for the LCA
* Moog stock replacement pitman arm
* OEM new inner and outer tie rod ends

Rear
* Poly LCA bushings
* Edelbrock or Currie UCAs
* Will probably keep the spring that's already in there.

Question:
I noticed Heidts has a tall 2" drop spindle available. From what I read this would address the need for tall ball joints. Is there a preference here? I figure if I went with the 9.5" stock springs in the front the car will sit higher but I also need to take into account that the SC&C UCAs will drop the car by another 1+".

Any thoughts on the optimal setup here?

Update: I just did the math. The tall BJ's + SC&C UCAs (aka. Stage II) will come out cheaper than if I bought tube UCAs and the tall spindle.

 

[vrooom3440]

So the stock front springs are around 17" free length as I recall from measuring mine. So a 9.5" spring is about a 7.5" reduction in free length of the spring. Or about 15" of wheel movement

Now admittedly that is just the starting point of spring compression. But if a stock spring is 320 lb/in it gives a wheel rate of 80 lb/in. And if we figure 800 lb per front wheel (often a bit more but this works as an example) we will need 10" of wheel compression or 5" of compression at the spring to get to ride height. That makes for a 12" fitted length of the spring (about what I recall measuring recently as well).

Now that 550 lb/in 9.5" spring... wheel rate is 137 lb/in... wheel compression 5.8"... spring compression ~3"... fitted length 6.5"

Now we probably wanted to lower the car a bit but probably NOT over 10"

And this is why we always include the tall version of the coil spring adjusters in our plans for running stock car springs. A basic "adjustable hidden spring shim" has a range of 0-2.5". Does not get us quite where we need to go. The tall version has an extra 3" top on it, so it goes 3.125-5.25". So we can go as high as 1/2" lower than stock to about 4" lower with the 9.5" stock car spring.

Now this is all theoretical mathematical mumbo jumbo and your results will certainly vary from these specific numbers :yes: But this gives you an idea what is going on and how it works :beers:

So aside from omitting the very important adjustable spring shims, your plan looks pretty good. Certainly something you build from and upon.

One comment is when you go stiffer on the springs on one end you usually need to also go stiffer on the other end to rebalance things out. It all gets really technical and the engineers start talking about natural frequency and such. Basically how fast the car bounces is a function of the weight versus spring rate and you do not a rabid bunny hopping on one end while the other end floats like a Cadillac. This could be disconcerting to the driver/passengers. So you would probably want to plan in a spring upgrade in the rear real soon after doing the front.

 

[1966_L78]

Is you Grand Cherokee box tight?

the best thing I did was to install an AGR box on my Chevelle (basically stock but "fresh" suspension with a used "transAm" quick ratio box)...

The box was nice and tight, and had a firm feel to the steering effort...

You can still consider Poly Bushings in the LCA's (both front and rear), just NOT the upper rears...

Replace the upper bushing (in the rearend housing) with a NEW rubber bushing...

For springs, to avoid headaches, consider a "package" (Edelbrock/Eibach or Hotchkis, etc)...

I think the SC&C Stage 2 is a good idea, but I wouldn't worry if its not in your budget (except, are you currently having issues with tire wear?).

Don't worry about the "price", just think about the difference in the upgrade. If you "rebuild" your stock uppers, its still going to cost you money, so how much more for the SC&C stuff?

Replace ALL the steering linkage (idler, tie rods and sleeves, and Centerlink)

 

[Matty B]

The idler and centerlink are non wear items????? Whats the point? Thats bull, if they are in good shape and do not exhibit any slop thats money that could be spent elsewhere. If budget wasnt a concern Id say yeah do it cause youre yanking stuff anyways but come on... Tie rods and adjusters as well as the pitman arm and youre good to go. Hell that hotchkis rebuild kit is just Moog parts stuffed in a box and sold at a mark up. Also Id try to disuade you from going Hotchkis anything if you can help it. I bought a set of their front springs and I wont be using them, if you want em though Ill sell em new in box for 110 bucks plus shipping they are the big block springs since I wanted a higher spring rate.

Oh and as far as springs go, I recommended the eihbachs cause they come in a matched kit, they are about as reputable as a manufacturer comes and the stuff works. Id stay away from the spring adjuster stuff, it sounds good and the initial buy in is cheap but from what Ive seen Id prefer not to deal with the hassles involved in adjusting those things. Imagine having to disassemble your front suspension in order to adjust the springs, thats WAY too much work especially if you are corner weighting and have to do it 5 or 6 times or more. I have a saying that goes a long way. Its BUY ONCE CRY ONCE. Buy the right parts the first time even if they are expensive and be done with it. Saving 100 bucks up front only to have hours of work involved making the stuff work isnt worth it and in fact I think its stupid. Now Im not saying you go out and buy the most expensive parts available, just the opposite, be smart and informed about what you trully need and buy the best parts that fill the role.
The SC&C control arms are a perfect example. They are resonable in price but the also have the advantage of being completely adjustable and also upgradeable. They are modular in design so if you want a different style ball joint you just buy the ball joint and the mounting plate, not the whole arm. They dont have normal soft bushings either and they are zero slop and move completely drag free. I swore there were ball bearings inside em.

Steering linkage needs to have no slop and thats it. Plain and simple, if you have no slop then your input into the car will translate to the tires. In this case you just want to buy durable parts that arent gonna wear out quickly. Moog is a great brand for tie rod ends or pitman arms ext. Napa carries them, just buy the premium brand stuff and thats what you get. I just helped out my buddy on his camaro and he spent just under 100 bucks on new tie rods complete (he did get my discount).

More or less be smart about what you buy and youll come out with a great end result that meets your expectations and wont break the bank. Id also suggest not following what the coolest guy with the coolest parts is doing. These guys dont have budgets, believe me they are customers of mine, and dropping 5 grand on car parts is no big deal. These guys have their Chevelle as well as two mercedes and a corvette z06 in the garage as well. Its real tough trying to keep up with them and you just gotta prioritze for yourself.

I did a pretty good job of doing my frontend with some bells and whistles and came out under budget. Kore3 brake brackets and Delco parts at my cost came in under 500 bucks total. I now have 13" brakes, red z06 calipers and standard non cross drilled rotors. Stage 2+ kit with screw in ball joints, SPC lowers and refubished drum spindles (bead blasted and painted cast iron gray) this costed somewhere around 1200 bucks. I was gonna run the hotchkis springs with varishocks but after the springs didnt fit my aftermarket lower control arms I reboxed em and set them aside this costed 900 bucks. I decided to run shockwaves with varishocks . My sway bar is yet to be ordered but it will be a speedway engineering splined bar with some custom bent arms courtesy of my press and I will custom make the pillow block mounts. And finally steering will be handled by a rebuilt Lee steering box. Im up in the air if I want to run bumpsteer tierod ends but that can be figured out whenever. Either way I got alot of cool stuff and its not that pricey when you figure it all out. Think brakes, I coulda easily spent 1500 or more on a 6 piston 14" brake kit but I didnt, why? Cause I didnt need it and neither do most people. You ever driven a corvette and mashed the brakes? They stop good enough for me. I could spend 800 on one of Detroit Speeds sway bar kits but I didnt, why? Cause I could buy the same swaybar and spend a few hours making my sway bar arms. When youre poor in this game you gotta make up for it with ingenuity and some labor. I gaurantee youll come out smarter than the guy that gave a credit card number and bought a kit full of stuff. When you have to design it you learn and with that you have a one up on the rich guys cause you can say, "what a waste I coulda made that for 1/10 what he spent" believe me its rewarding. Sorry for the long post but Im going through the same thing with limited funds and the desire to build a cool car. PM if you need any help figuring it out, Ive spent my hard earned dough and I think it went in the right directions for the most part and I dont mind passing that on to the next guy.

 

[pist0lpete]

I agree with everything you have said MattyB except that you don't recommend the speedway adjusters. What are you gonna do if you don't like the ride height of your Eibachs? If its too low you have to order new springs if its too high you can cut the springs but then you affect the spring rate. With the stock cars springs you can order any rate you want and then fine tune your ride height to what you want. Short of coilovers($$$) this is really what makes the most sense. Sure it may take a little work to get the perfect height but so would taking the springs out and replacing or cutting. Thats just my $0.02.

 

[vrooom3440]

Matt you and I are on the same wave length with respect to doing more with less $$$ :thumbsup: For example I run a wrecking yard Camaro steering box that I modified to Chevelle steering stop specs (got me known fast ratio and large .210" T bar and I LOVE it!).

We disagree in the area of springs though. I have a set of Eibach's in my Elky right now and they are going to come back out. I bought them because I had read good things about them and because I got a good deal on them. They provided too much drop and I have had to take things apart just as much as if I HAD bought stock car racing springs. So my experience is contrary to yours, for me the Eibachs just did not work.

With the stock car parts you at least know what you are getting with respect to lengths and rates. This information is all a mystery with Eibach or Hotchkis or pretty much most all of the other performance spring sets out there. And if you are going so far as to corner weigh and tune, then you are going to need to know the spring rates.

The cool tie rod adjustment sleeves sold by Edelbrock and Hotchkis are actually kinda functional. If you do your own toe adjustment not having to deal with the pinch bolt clamps is almost priceless. But I have a suspicion that this too could be done a lot cheaper by creative shopping in the stock car catalogs. :beers:

 

[bochnak]

Update: I just did the math. The tall BJ's + SC&C UCAs (aka. Stage II) will come out cheaper than if I bought tube UCAs and the tall spindle.

I am running stock BJ's with the SPC adj arms. You still benefit with these arms by adding more + caster. You have to run the BJ spacer kit and 15"+ wheels though. I would not consider any other arm. Run stock lowers.

I went this route since I too am on a budget. I plan to add BJ's as the budget allows.

In addition to the arms, you'll be very happy with new springs/shocks.

 

[thunderstruck507]

I only had to take the front stuff off twice to get mine the way I wanted. And since I only put it back together enough to put it on the ground, it took no time at all. Maybe 4 hours.

I agree with the rest of your post though.

 

[bochnak]

Id stay away from the spring adjuster stuff, it sounds good and the initial buy in is cheap but from what Ive seen Id prefer not to deal with the hassles involved in adjusting those things.

I disagree. It takes about 45min per side to change ride height. Set it and forget it.

What if you install other springs and the ride height is 1/2" off from were you would like it? What would you do to correct it?

 

[RYU]

Great comments. Definitely a lot of info for me to consider. Also appreciate the intelligent and mature commentary - not always the case around on some forums.

So I think i'm convinced to just go with Stage II SC&C kit - spend the money now for the long term benefit on the UCAs. I'm still trying to figure out on exactly the spring combo to install. I would love to have something that's a set-it-and-forget-it install but I doubt i'll be that lucky. If I buy Eibach springs there's very little chance i'll end up not having to adjust ride height to get that perfect stance. Stock springs and speedway adjusters might be the ticket but then i'll have to fuss with spring rates and spring heights - making good progress tho!!!

Still pondering... but I feel like we're almost there. Hope this thread is helpful to some folks also.

UPDATE: It also seems like i'll be able to go with a Shockwave Air Ride setup at some point in the future even with SC&C UCAs. That's some added flexibility for the future. Although, those air ride systems are SUPER $$$

 

[bochnak]

Stock springs and speedway adjusters might be the ticket

You would have to cut the stock springs in half to work with the adjusters. Doing so will increase the rate to who knows what.

Circle track springs are $33 ea from southwestspeed, and you know the rate you are purchasing. Inexpensive, IMHO.

 

[gthmcty1]

WOW! Great commentary and a bunch of useful info! I just got back into the A-body scene (1967 Olds Cutlass) I will definitely be referringback to this post! Thanks guys!

 

[Hotchkis]

Lots of good information on here and I don't want to contradict people, since I'm not only a manufacturer but also a newbie on the board. But a few things to consider: adjustable height spring setups sacrifice performance for height control. Also, as mentioned before, the LCA is mostly for strength/looks and doesn't really alter geometry.

Occasionally people have had to fine-tune our springs for their desired ride height, but that's very rare (less than 10%) and usually its because they have a different setup (aluminum LS1, removed inner fender panels, etc). However our springs are progressively wound and track tested, unlike some of the other stuff out there where they essentially increased the tension and reduced height using formulas.

For about your budget, you can get a complete TVS (front and rear bars, upper and lower rear control arms, springs and control arm braces). Our upper A-Arms would put you over budget but some of our vendors run sales on a regular basis. The result is a matched system designed to work on the street or track, but more importantly provide comfortable ride at the same time.

Just one opinion, but a complete package is something to think about.

 

[vrooom3440]

Lots of good information on here and I don't want to contradict people, since I'm not only a manufacturer but also a newbie on the board. But a few things to consider: adjustable height spring setups sacrifice performance for height control. ...

Hey we (or certainly I) don't mind if you contradict us by giving some factual education. Give us some tech to show us what we are missing and you can be our new best friend :thumbsup:

In particular can you elaborate on how an adjustable height spring setup compromises performance? I don't get that at all.

Occasionally people have had to fine-tune our springs for their desired ride height, but that's very rare (less than 10%) and usually its because they have a different setup (aluminum LS1, removed inner fender panels, etc). However our springs are progressively wound and track tested, unlike some of the other stuff out there where they essentially increased the tension and reduced height using formulas.

Yup. Pretty much what I said about meeting the same assumptions as the parts were designed for. And I would bet you guys started off with some formulas too

For about your budget, you can get a complete TVS (front and rear bars, upper and lower rear control arms, springs and control arm braces). Our upper A-Arms would put you over budget but some of our vendors run sales on a regular basis. The result is a matched system designed to work on the street or track, but more importantly provide comfortable ride at the same time.

Just one opinion, but a complete package is something to think about.

Buying a package is a great way to go if you A) have the money and B) don't know or want to learn how stuff works. You can just buy a "kit" and bolt it on and not think any more about it. That works and works well for many people. This kit does have a pretty big limitation in that it does nothing to address the fundamental A-body front end geometry problems. It would need to be combined with the SC&C Stage II package to reach it's full potential.

On the other hand, I believe there was a pretty strong starting assumption/objective in this thread to keep it cheap. If you are willing to do some research and ask some questions and learn you can accomplish much the same affect for a lot less $$$. First you eliminate buying extra parts that do not move the performance bar, like front/rear LCAs. Next you choose lower cost (but not necessarily lower quality) vendors. What can be done?

Springs front $120 with adjusters (Southwest Speed)
Springs rear $148 with adjusters (Speedway Motors)
Sway bars $250 (UMI)
Rear UCAs $225 (Edelbrock -- Summit Racing)
Angle Iron $ 50 frame braces (hey it worked for the factory )
Total: $793 versus $1470 for Hotchkis TVS kit

Take the $677 savings and put it towards the SC&C Stage II kit :yes:
Now you do run some risk here that you choose the wrong parts. Maybe you get the wrong spring rate or something. Then you have to buy more parts and eat into your savings. But if you can reduce this risk with guidance from those who have already done it?

Wow what a novel Not trying to bash Hotchkis or anybody, this same basic tradeoff has been around the business forever. Some need/want the packaged deal and Hotchkis has a good quality product for them. Some need/want to have more tech info and have to roll their own to get it as mainstream vendors, including Hotchkis, just do not publish the details.

Personally I would start with the SC&C kit first before springs or anything else. What that geometry does to tires is a crime.

 

[Matty B]

I agree with everything you have said MattyB except that you don't recommend the speedway adjusters. What are you gonna do if you don't like the ride height of your Eibachs? If its too low you have to order new springs if its too high you can cut the springs but then you affect the spring rate. With the stock cars springs you can order any rate you want and then fine tune your ride height to what you want. Short of coilovers($$$) this is really what makes the most sense. Sure it may take a little work to get the perfect height but so would taking the springs out and replacing or cutting. Thats just my $0.02.

IF you get the SPC lower control arms they have a shim pack that goes under the spring (not over the top) the shims are about an 1/8" thick and it adjust your ride heght a 1/4" at a time. Yes you still have to pop the control arm but since the shims are a set height you can measure once add what you need and youre done. The nice thing about those control arms is that you more or less add height to the car to get where you want cause with no shims it will lay the frame out. That means no cutting springs at all and you can run as tall a spring as you want. It also means that a 9.5 in circle track spring is gonna be WAY too low and youll have to shim it out quite a bit. Id rather add a shim than have to completely disassemble everything and turn the adjuster hoping I got it right. It works yes but too finiky for me. And also as you didnt mention there are clearance issues with the adjusters and adjustable shocks. The shock body will rub the adjuster causing all kinds of potential issues. There are numerous accounts of this. Obviously this isnt an issue with a regular shock but you will end up with an issue if you decide to upgrade for xmas.