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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Someone I know repainted their car using black Nason basecoat and Dupont clearcoat. The first time, they had some sags and imperfections in the clearcoat. So they sanded it, going through to the basecoat in some areas and then prepped it to respray the clearcoat.

To help ensure a better outcome, they paid a pro to come in (home garage) and spray the clear. He preferred to use Nason, so that is what he used. This time it is far worse than before.

The main problem is that it has hundreds, if not thousands, of small depressions or dimples in the clearcoat. The clearcoat did not fill in those spots, seemingly repelled by something.

In order to create a smooth finish - to reach the bottom of the dimples - one must wetsand nearly through the clearcoat to the basecoat. With really careful work, it might be possible to make the paint job into a 5 footer and then redo it in a year or two once the frustration fades.

The "pro" that sprayed the clearcoat got paid and walked away. He claimed it was a "show quality" paint job.

Could these be fisheyes? The fisheyes I have seen before look bigger than these do. I've used fisheye preventer (a few drops in the container of paint) with the old single stage paints, but is this also recommended for basecoats and clearcoats?

If these aren't fisheyes, what else could have caused the problem? Some impurity that settled on the car before painting that the prep did not take off? Or?

Sorry I don't have any pictures and won't be seeing the car for a while again.
 

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If it looks like it was repelled then I would guess he had some silicon contamination. If it only shows up on the flat surfaces, ie horizontal, and not the sides it could be just dust etc settling on the wet surface. If they show up on the sides as little tiny sags I'd bet on silicon. Wonder if they wiped it down with cleaner before they shot it. Silicon is an insidous beast. It's in almost everything. One little shot of WD-40 on something in the garage could provide enough overspray to mess up the paint job. I've heard that if something doesn't specifically say, NO SILICON, chances are good that it has it. That car may be a problem child. The silcon won't dry out or evaporate in a year or two. It can be maddening.
 

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We have a rule that there will be absolutely no Silicon used in our bodyshop. We also thoroughly use a wax and grease remover in the booth before painting.

Fisheyes are nasty little buggers, a home garage spraying might have something floating around that may have been stirred up from the floor or off rags sitting around.

Check the air supply too. Make sure there's a excess moisture in there. Also, some guys use an inline oiler, or add air tool oil on the supply side of the hose, instead of right at the tool. Might have some tool oil blown out with the paint. Might also be something from inside the air supply tank itself.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
If it looks like it was repelled then I would guess he had some silicon contamination. If it only shows up on the flat surfaces, ie horizontal, and not the sides it could be just dust etc settling on the wet surface. If they show up on the sides as little tiny sags I'd bet on silicon.
The spots are everywhere; just as bad on the vertical panels as on the horizontal. But they don't look like sags - just like holes in the clearcoat. And they don't have noticeable bits of dust in them.

The silicone theory may explain it.
 

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My paint area is not the greatest so sadly, I have had to deal with lots of fisheyes. Yes, you can add the fisheye remover to the clear coat no problem. I've done quite a few nice and not so nice paint jobs over the years and I only had one that was absolutely covered in fisheyes. I never did figure out exactly what happened. It's been a while but I'm pretty sure I caught it in time and was able to add the fisheye remover before it dried. It was an auction car so it was not a real big deal but I remember it came out pretty good. I've had plenty of patchy fisheyes as well. If you don't catch it while its wet, it's like you said, sand it down and start over. Your so called "pro" sounds like a real piece of work. Good luck.
Mike
 

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i have had to deal with fisheyes recently, the trick is to see the problem in the first coat of clear while its happening then add fisheye remover to your second coat and so on to bridge the fisheye since whats done is done what i did was sand the clear almost all the way done to the base, rebased recleared and the fisheye tried to come back but i had the fisheye remover ready and that solved the problem
good look scott
 

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Sounds like fish eyes, or solvent pop. Solvent pop is usually from putting material too heavy or not using the proper hardener. They are usually very small and can be sanded and buffed out, also usually on top surfaces. As stated, fish eyes could be caused by lots of things, even deodorant or hair spray. I try never to use silicone remover, I usually dab a little clear into the fish eye after it sets a little. But if there are a bunch this is pretty much impossible and silicone remover is your only choice. Basically your contaminating the whole batch of clear with silicione, goes just in the clearcoat and must be used in the same amount in each coat. Only problem with using it is it contaminates the garage or booth and just makes the problem worse.
 

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Yep. If you use fisheye eliminator once you might as well start buying it by the gallon. It won't just be clear coat you'll be seeing fisheyes in. You'll start seeing it in your sealer and primer. Just sanding it down won't make it go away. Chances are you'll just spread it around. It'll be in your guns, overspray on the floor, when you sand it, it'll be in the dust you make. As long as they make coffee you'll have silicon contamination.
 

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are you sure its not orange peel or some other problem?...since it covers the car completly, i doubt its a wax/grease problem (unless you used a contaminated rag to wipe the entire car), just from your info, i'm going with the bad air guess (if indeed it is a contamination issue) i actually would guess its an application problem (over/under reduction, over/under air pressure or excessive coat thickness) and is a bad case of orange peel, check these out...

http://www.ppgcarpaint.com/problemsolving.php

http://www.tcpglobal.com/solverindex.html

i had a more comprehensive one from (i thought) PPG, (anyone have a link, hook us up) but i cant seem to find it now....good luck
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
hrd- the car also has orange peel, but the orange peel comes out quite easily with some wet sanding and polishing.

The fisheyes or whatever they are go much deeper than the orange peel.

From the replies here and other reading, the most likely cause seems to be contamination of the surface or the material.

One other thing, after finishing spraying the clear coat, the painter immediately lit up a cigarette after finishing spraying. Fortunately, the exhaust fan had cleared the air enough that the entire garage did not go up in smoke. I don't suppose that cigarette smoke could have added to the problems with the paint?
 

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If they are fisheyes, you should see little specs in the middle all the way down to the sealer or primer, whichever the base was sprayed over. Sounds like you have a real problem on your hands, good luck with that.
 

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hrd-
One other thing, after finishing spraying the clear coat, the painter immediately lit up a cigarette after finishing spraying. Fortunately, the exhaust fan had cleared the air enough that the entire garage did not go up in smoke. I don't suppose that cigarette smoke could have added to the problems with the paint?
Nope. Do you use any Armor All or Tire Wet in the garage?
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
It's not my car or garage, but I have been helping the fellow try to figure this out. He says that he had not done any mechanical work in the garage for weeks before he had the clearcoat redone. And he had finished sanding down the previous clearcoat not too long before.

Over time, I suppose that most of us use all use all kinds of things in our garages. Wouldn't it be nice to have a dedicated paint booth with a first rate filtering and ventilation system!

Here's another question if anyone cares to answer. Do any of you add fish eye preventer to your basecoat and clearcoat every time that you paint?
 

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Here's another question if anyone cares to answer. Do any of you add fish eye preventer to your basecoat and clearcoat every time that you paint?
NO
Adding the fisheye additive basically turns your paintjob into one big fisheye.
IMO, the only and only time you should add that stuff is if you are having major problems with fisheyes and cant rid them. Not something you should just dump in for the safety factor.
Fisheye additive is the last resort right before you pull out that final hair on your head. So basically am saying its a band aid repair...Eric
 

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Post some pictures of the bad areas so we can have a good look see what it is for sure. Sometimes you can have solvent pop problems that look like fisheyes but they go very deep and are more of a funnel shape. This happens when using fast curing products and applying them will little to no flash time-the solvents eventually come out from the bottom up.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Bob, Sorry but I don't have any pictures. And I won't be seeing the car for a while again. I've looked at quite a few pictures of fisheyes in the last few days, and it does look like that is what it is.

Another term I've come across for the same thing is "cissing." (Maybe it should be "cussing," because that is what one might be tempted to do when this happens.)
 

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NO
Adding the fisheye additive basically turns your paintjob into one big fisheye.
IMO, the only and only time you should add that stuff is if you are having major problems with fisheyes and cant rid them. Not something you should just dump in for the safety factor.
Fisheye additive is the last resort right before you pull out that final hair on your head. So basically am saying its a band aid repair...Eric
Exactly, Fish Eye Preventer is nothing but pure silicone.
 

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It's not my car or garage, but I have been helping the fellow try to figure this out. He says that he had not done any mechanical work in the garage for weeks before he had the clearcoat redone. And he had finished sanding down the previous clearcoat not too long before.

Over time, I suppose that most of us use all use all kinds of things in our garages. Wouldn't it be nice to have a dedicated paint booth with a first rate filtering and ventilation system!

Here's another question if anyone cares to answer. Do any of you add fish eye preventer to your basecoat and clearcoat every time that you paint?
Why did he sand down the previous clearcoat?

Does he have any water traps or inline filters within his compressor setup? Sounds like you all could have a moisture problem from the air supply, maybe an old tired compresser building lots of heat and pushing moisture and/or oil into the air supply... I would also check that out before having any thing sprayed from that shop again!
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Why did he sand down the previous clearcoat?

Does he have any water traps or inline filters within his compressor setup?
He sanded down the previous clearcoat because he had some runs and sags and could see some ripples in the bodywork. So he did a little more work on those spots, hoping for a good final job.

The compressor is not very old and seems to be OK; it always worked well before. I completely agree with your point about the importance of keeping water and oil out of the air supply.
 
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