[Donaldg]

So after I strip all rust from my frame, what are the next steps? I was told to clean with lacquer thinner, spray self-etching primer, primer and then lacquer. Is this correct? This will be a driver not a show car. I don't want to spend a whole lot of $$ on this.

Btw, what does self-etching mean and do I need that?

Thanks.

 

[70-SS454]

I'd follow the instructions & clean & paint it with POR-15 products. I hear it produces excellent results even when brushed on...

 

[Raven1]

So after I strip all rust from my frame, what are the next steps? I was told to clean with lacquer thinner, spray self-etching primer, primer and then lacquer. Is this correct? This will be a driver not a show car. I don't want to spend a whole lot of $$ on this.

Btw, what does self-etching mean and do I need that?

Thanks.

Strip how? Sandblast? How much rust will remain if using another method? If blasting go straight to epoxy and end it. Topcoating the epoxy is always best but not required on a budget job. Etch and epoxy are not the same and produce good results depending on different situations. Etch's performance action is within it's name, it chemically etches the metal and must be followed by primer before topcoating. Epoxy offers excellent adhesion by mechanical means and provides superior corrosion protection and can be topcoated directly. Read the TDS for every product you use, they are all available on-line.

I'd follow the instructions & clean & paint it with POR-15 products. I hear it produces excellent results even when brushed on...

You heard? That's exactly how that product's use travels through hobbyland. I heard some guy on a TV commercial in a white lab coat say lab tests have proven a product to work. I'd use SEM rust products before I used POR. Blasting is best although some don't have the means to do so and can rely on other methods.

 

[Bikerman9967]

Why use por on clean metal?

 

[CoolBlueGlow]

Short answer is "don't"

Here's my table of choices, with benefits/liabilities

POWDER COAT: Great non-stock look - but not "correct"...just close. Ultimate durability - most expensive and time consuming, as it requires third party vendor help. Application difficulty n/a (must be done by a third party vendor)

EPOXY: (as outlined by Scott) Best look, can achieve dead match to factory appearance with careful work. very high durability, easier repairability - medium costs, application skill level is medium (skilled hobbyist or pro painter) Professional spray and protective gear highly recommended

"Rustoleum style" semi gloss enamels: Can look good, even close to correct with careful attention to proper gloss level, moderate to medium durability, easy to repair, least expensive up front materials costs, easy application with hobbyist equipment.

"Specialty" paint on coatings (POR15, etc.) appearance/gloss not "correct" out of the container, but can be adjusted (like Rustoleum type enamels, with unknown affect on durability.) Durability, POR = "paint over rust" (really) POR is not recommended for sandblasted surfaces. Durability - unknown on clean metal,but perhaps similar to Rustoleum style enamels? costs higher than Rustoleum types, roughly equal to epoxy. Application with hobbyist level equipment.

lacquer chassis paint exact factory look, low durability, easy to repair, costs are low. Application is easy with hobbyist level gear.

There you go. Others may disagree with my assessments.

I like epoxy and powder coat, in that order.

 

[myrusty66]

why does everyone seem to hate POR products? i have used them and had good results. yes, they are expensive. yes, they are a pain to clean up after use. yes, they can be tricky with dry times between coats, maybe more so in the hotter climates as i have experienced. these products were developed for military and marine applications that have a higher corrosion level than most autos.

i dont endorse the products, but when i started it was recomended to me and i have had good results. i have since broadened my knowledge and found other products that work as well or better, it really seems to be more of where you are using the particular product. but everytime POR is mentioned it gets flogged like the red headed step child. i am just curious why the high opposition to it, not that it really makes a difference. just seems like new people asking questions should be given a more detailed reason then "POR sucks". just my 2 cents.

 

[Raven1]

why does everyone seem to hate POR products?

these products were developed for military and marine applications that have a higher corrosion level than most autos.

new people asking questions should be given a more detailed reason then "POR sucks". just my 2 cents.

Not everyone does hate it. Did the military contract POR to design this product for them? I'm doubting that an aircraft carrier is painted with POR. Ever hear of Carboline for industrial use?

There are people who are in the professional end of this. Their approaches and product use often differ from a hobbiest; so do their sources of products and information. Even some hobbiests prefer the professional approach and acquire info from the correct sources. POR is advertised by vendors like Eastwood, professional products like SEM and others are not. I've often given reasons why POR is not the best choice, others have too.

If some people have had good luck with it that's fine.

 

[cheveslakr]

I've got a rotisserie I fabbed up and let sit unprotected out in the elements for 1 winter. Decided it's a good test for the por15 since I had the remainder of a pint. Brushed it on only wiping the dusty rust off and it's been sitting for 6 or 7 years out in the same spot.....still hard as a rock and no chaulking. This gives me the confidence to use it in hidden areas I just can't get to with a blaster without splitting panels. It has a "solvent" like ability to wick into lap seams to further protect where a typical paint just won't. IMO it's perfect for this application and I just haven't been shown another product that can outperform. Wouldn't even consider using it for rusty metal where it's possible to blast and treat with a good epoxy. Not to blast the profession but I know plenty of pros and only a small handful have the passion to seek information beyond the minimum that's required to get their job done. I also know plenty of amateurs that like to talk out of their ars so you can get worthy answers from both and bs from both....due diligence.

 

[myrusty66]

i didnt mean to hijack thread. i just put it out there since it was mentioned.

i have learned a lot from scott's replies on various posts, both mine and others. i definitly respect his opinions. i was just curious why certain products get slammed all the time. i dont care for Eastwood products. i have tried a few and think they are junk, quick fix that wont last. But as scott stated, the difference between the pros and hobbyiest is access to products and working with them enough to find the one that works best.

as for the op, take the advice you get here, do your research, and go with what you are comfortable with.

 

[Raven1]

Willing to bet most hobbiests use POR before SEM. Is that because POR info travels mainly within the hobby circle and SEM does not? Even Permatex makes a similar coating. http://www.semproducts.com/product-catalog/rust-and-corrosion/rust-seal/
For example: Many people who never heard of SEM buy Rustoleum. The few who actually try SEM black are never disappointed. Except the price is higher.

Jerry, it's no surprise there are hacks in the business. I've seen them first hand and some even post their butchery on-line.

 

[CoolBlueGlow]

+1 on what Scott said. That pretty much sums it up.

re: "slam(ing) POR-15"

Note that in my previously posted list of finish options for a sandblasted frame, I did not slam POR-15. I believe I covered a fair range of common options...and I included POR-15 without any prejudicial comments. Still, POR-15 really doesn't belong on a list of choices for a sandblasted frame, since it is a paint over rust product...but I included it because I knew someone would say "why are you omitting POR-15?" If I left it off.

So again, The OP asked about best finish for a (sandblasted?) clean frame. Because of cost / durability / application excellence issues for the OP, epoxy would seem to be a great choice. Remember POR = paint over rust. Why would anyone want to pay epoxy-like materials prices for POR (or Any other brand "paint over rust" products) on a surface that is already properly prepped to receive epoxy?

Just my opinion.

 

[myrusty66]

keith, you are correct. you never slammed POR in your post. maybe i should have clarified that better. i have been following variuos posts and anytime POR is mentioned it gets nothing but "run away" from most people.

i do see SEM products talked about alot. usually from sumitt flyers. i have never used it, but am completly open to trying it. i do this as a hobby and always trying to learn and improve my skills and knowledge of products

 

[Chevelle_Nut]

The SEM product looks like what I need in my trunk area, I think I will give it a try when the time comes.

 

[CoolBlueGlow]

Sorry Pat - I misread your intentions. Easy to do in text. My apologies.

So, I'm not "anti POR-15" per se, I'm just really against the practice of painting over rust. Naturally, that gives me a low affinity for products designed for that function. Rationally, I understand that they must exist and that they do have a function. At a personal integrity level, I just can't bring myself to practice such behaviors (i.e. painting over rust). I just smacks of shortcut sloppy work...but that is my opinion, NOT empirical reality. As Jerry mentioned, he's gotten good results with POR-15...and it fit his application and situation.

Now, with regard to Eastwood, IMO, they are sort of the "Sharper Image" of car restoration supply houses. Yes, they make sense for some folks. Yes, they do provide a service for hobbyists (especially Newbies). Newbies/busy folks can use their catalogue as a learning experience/one stop shop for a fair number of tools and techniques, etc. Yea, I always received good service from them the few times I've do e business there... but always at premium prices.

I wish them no ill will, but their markups are just astronomical. I simply cant afford them, especially when practically every product they carry can be found (often without much effort, thanks to the wb), and usually at 50-60% of the Eastwood advertised price. (Eastwood exclusives excepted).

Finally, I would mention that Scott (who is a refinish professional) has in the past mentioned a refinish website for pros, whose forum contains a lot of good info at the pro level. The name of the site escapes me at the moment, but you could ask Raven1. I'm kind of done with the paint game now, but in the past when I've gone there with refinish questions (as a hobbyist, just like you) I always learned a lot.

Maybe Raven1 will repost the name of that pro refinishing site?

 

[Donaldg]

Thanks for all the info, especially on the final finish. I am still in the dark about recommended primers. I still don't know what "self-etching" primer is and whether i need to use that. I also am not sure whether if I do need a self etching primer, whether I need to apply a primer over that.

I am just a hobbyist trying to do the best job on a limited budget.

 

[Raven1]

Thanks for all the info, especially on the final finish. I am still in the dark about recommended primers. I still don't know what "self-etching" primer is and whether i need to use that. I also am not sure whether if I do need a self etching primer, whether I need to apply a primer over that.

I am just a hobbyist trying to do the best job on a limited budget.

I explained this already. Etch has to be primed before painting, epoxy does not. Use epoxy on bare or blasted steel then leave it as is or paint it. Other options were provided if watching nickels.

We are in the dark if your frame is getting blasted or not.

 

[72novaproject]

I am no professional but my understanding is that once you have bare metal you can spray a self etching or some call it an acid etch primer over the surface which creates a bonding layer. This must be followed with a primer/surfacer or high build primer which must be sanded prior to top coating.

Another approach which I do is to use PPG two step metal treatments and cover with epoxy primer. I have done this on a few cars for the under body and under hood areas and it looks very factory once it cures. It wears like iron and as long as it is not in direct sun it really holds up well with no need for a top coat.

As far as the metal treatment goes I did a post on this and saved it as it comes up pretty often.


ABOUT BARE METAL:

There are a number of ways to prepare bare steel prior to the application of your paint system. Please understand these are systems and this is the first step so it is important as a foundation. Pro’s tend to use etch primers or direct to metal filler primers due to the speed of the process. Time is money after all. As a hobbyist the following method is what I use. No method is necessarily better than the other and they are all correct and accepted methods. You can decide what works best for you.


PPG TWO STEP METAL TREATMENT TUTORIAL:

As hobbyist, we seldom have the time to complete a metal process (patch, weld grind) and spray protective primer expediently. PPG’s two step metal treatment will allow me to keep my car in bare steel for several months without it rusting. If a spot does re-rust I simply re-treat it until I am ready to spray expensive epoxy primer. Plus, PPG says it promotes “Superior Adhesion” combined with their DP line of epoxy primer which I like.

The example below is a side marker light I shaved on my 72. People come over and marvel at how flat it is and the first thing they do is rub it with their hands. Although it was treated when I finished it, the oil from their hands will make it start to rust again. I re-treated it and took some photos so I could document this process as it come up a lot in discussion.

The following procedure is an embellishment to the product instructions which should be read thoroughly prior to use. I have developed this procedure from using the products many times. To me, it makes the process faster and more efficient. I did the example below in approximately five minutes including product working times.

DX-579 Metal Cleaner
Mechanically remove loose rust with scotch bright, sandpaper or a wire brush.
Spray DX-579 on the surface and work it in with a red scotch bright pad.
The P-Sheet recommends a mix ratio but I use it full strength at times.
Keep the surface wet with DX-579 until all the rust is gone.
Continue to scrub stubborn areas until clean.
This is an acid and it takes some time to work.
Rinse the surface with clear water while scrubbing it with a red scotch bright pad.
The DX-579 is a little slimy so the scrubbing helps ensure it is all gone.
Dry the part with paper towels and blow it dry with compressed air.

DX-520 Metal Conditioner
After drying the part you may see orange (rust) streaks in the metal.
The DX-520 will remove the light rust streaks.
Spray DX-520 on the surface and scrub it in with a fresh scotch bright pad.
Just work it in initially and then put the scotch bright down for good.
Keep the surface wet with DX-520 until you see it turn a dull gray.
DX-520 deposits a microscopic zinc phosphate coating that builds up on the surface.
The longer you leave it on the darker it will get with the coating.
The coating acts as a sacrificial anode to prevent rust similar to galvanizing.
Don’t continue to scrub with scotch bright or you will remove the coating.
Rinse the part with sheeting clear water to remove the DX-520.
Immediately dry the part with a paper towel and blow dry.
Try not to touch the part with your bare hands after treating.

TIPS FOR USE:
With light surface rust you can skip the DX-579 step. The DX-520 will remove it.
You still need to clean the treated surface with wax and grease remover prior to primer.
The products are water soluble and can be applied with a pump spray bottle.
After 24 hours you should re-treat with DX-520 only prior to priming.
I don’t wear gloves but you probably should with the DX-579.
Oddly, I found the DX-579 will remove mill scale.

PHOTOS:

Before the final welding and metal finishing. Note the date stamp.

After several months with people touching it. Note the date stamp.

After the DX-579, dry and ready for DX-520.

Surface is wet with DX-520 as it deposits zinc phosphate. It is a little sudsy (surfactant quality) so it stays wet and rinses off easily. Note how the acid shows the difference in the weld metal and parent metal.

Clean and dry, the surface will now remain rust free as I work on other areas of the car.

These spray bottles are at Home Depot and work well for application. And before you ask, no, that is not my FORD in the back ground.

This is a much larger area. In fact I did the entire trunk area all at one time after tubing my car. It took me about 20 minutes.

This is a link to the P-Sheet # P-226 (instructions) from PPG.
http://www.bapspaint.com/docs/psheets/PPG/Automotive/Deltron/P-226.pdf

Hope this helps,

Steve

 

[Raven1]

Pro’s tend to use etch primers or direct to metal filler primers due to the speed of the process. Time is money after all. As hobbyist, we seldom have the time to complete a metal process (patch, weld grind) and spray protective primer expediently.
Steve

DTMs are used by pros in collison work. I don't know any professional resto shops that use it just because it's faster. Often in long term projects the car is epoxied right after media blasting and work progresses as time allows. It's what I do unless I'm going to have the bodywork ready for epoxy quickly.

 

[Donaldg]

Raven1: thanks for reminding me! I want to remove rust, old paint, etc. using flap disk and removal wheel in areas I can get to. Then I will sandblast hard to reach areas (please let me know if that is a problem). I will then consider spraying an epoxy directly as you suggest.

I do appreciate all the feedback. I continue to be impressed by all the collective knowledge of the members.

 

[Donaldg]

Follow up question for Raven1. You mean epoxy primer, right? CAn you recommend a brand? Can I do this with a rattle can or do I need to get quart/half-gallon and use spray gun?