[Pioneer4x4]

I have seen several kits, and I am not willing to go anywhere near $2,500 just to remove a carb and gain drivability and MPGs.
I think for that kind of money I am better off putting in a used 94 LT1 (I had one in a Caprice and it was an excellent motor.
This is a ZZ4 that has been in our 1967 El Camino for about 15 years with a 700R4.
Are there any good donor vehicles that I could get almost everything I need from? Maybe a 90s truck throttle body setup?

 

[Neal Wright]

I am not willing to go anywhere near $2,500 just to remove a carb and gain drivability and MPGs.

With those goals, I suspect you'll be disappointed in EFI. The 700r4 probably did good for MPG ... but, unless your carb is grossly misadjusted, you will get near ZERO MPG gain with EFI. There are some driveability improvements, but mostly on startup and low throttle cruise.

I don't think you'll find anything that will swap onto a ZZ4 without tuning. So you're going to have to buy the big-$$ item, which is an ECU. Some of the 80's TPI will swap onto the heads (I think), but you'll still need to flash an EEPROM chip.

All in all ... I think you hit it, you're cheapest option is to buy into an LT1 or LS motor, with the complete harness/computer.

Thanks, Neal

 

[ChevelleFan70]

I would tend to agree with Neil. I built a 10:1 355 with Vortec heads and a ZZ4 cam for my dad's Vette and with an Edelbrock 600 and the stock '63 Vette distributor, the driveability is just fine. Starts right up when cold and hasn't given me any issues in the 2 years it's been together. I've probably left some power on the table, but for that car, it's not a priority.

I think the only factory options that will fit your ZZ4 are a truck TBI setup or a Camaro/Vette TPI setup. Both TBI/TPI leave something to be desired in a performance application. LT1s are good running engines as you said.

Don't forget to include several hundred dollars for your fuel system if you go EFI. I'm really happy with my Tanks Inc setup so far (tank + pump), but it was $500, not including the plumbing and fittings. It's not a huge cost, but it's enough that it needs to be factored in. A crappy fuel system will lead to crappy running EFI. Ask me how I know.

-Dave

 

[Pioneer4x4]

All in all ... I think you hit it, you're cheapest option is to buy into an LT1 or LS motor, with the complete harness/computer.

Thanks, Neal

I figured, I was hit with sticker shock for the real nice add on kits. I will probably end up running the ZZ4 until it won't, and the money will be better spent on A/C which is a whole nother can-o-worms.

Everyone else, please chime in as well.
FWIW, I think it is a 600 CFM Performer or AFB on it now. And I got about 16 mpg on desert highway driving. In 2 weeks I am driving it back from Las Vegas to Pittsburgh, and will see how it does that whole trip.
I am not even sure what the rear axle ratio is, but will check in 2 weeks when I get there. I want EFI for all of the right reasons, effeciency, smell, polution, drivability. But none of that is big enough for $2,500. It runs real nice now, and only have done some minor carb adjustments, and played with the timing some. The 700R4 really works nice, lower first gear, plus OD to make 70mph OK.
I guess a LT1 with the 4L60E would be best choice in the future.

 

[Pioneer4x4]

I would tend to agree with Neil. I built a 10:1 355 with Vortec heads and a ZZ4 cam for my dad's Vette and with an Edelbrock 600 and the stock '63 Vette distributor, the driveability is just fine. Starts right up when cold and hasn't given me any issues in the 2 years it's been together. I've probably left some power on the table, but for that car, it's not a priority.

I think the only factory options that will fit your ZZ4 are a truck TBI setup or a Camaro/Vette TPI setup. Both TBI/TPI leave something to be desired in a performance application. LT1s are good running engines as you said.

Don't forget to include several hundred dollars for your fuel system if you go EFI. I'm really happy with my Tanks Inc setup so far (tank + pump), but it was $500, not including the plumbing and fittings. It's not a huge cost, but it's enough that it needs to be factored in. A crappy fuel system will lead to crappy running EFI. Ask me how I know.

-Dave

Thanks. It does drive real nice now, and at least it has HEI, I swore I would never mess with points again. Been there done that enough in the 70's. I would like to add to the fuel system as is, maybe a vent return, charcoal canister... passive stuff that will keep the fumes down in the garage. Not all emissions stuff is bad and power robbing. I may even put a O2 in just to monitor tuning the Carb.

Thanks again for the opinions!

 

[vrooom3440]

Regarding MPG...

The engine does not care if it's air/fuel comes from EFI or carb, it burns it just the same either way. Which means whichever produces the most accurate and correct ratio of fuel and air wins. Generally speaking.

At low load as when running down the highway your engine really can run on a mixture leaner than stoichiometric (14.7:1). The leaner mixture will run cooler and increase MPG. The real limit to how far you can go here is ignition and as you lean past the point you will get lean misfires depending on ignition system and other variables. AFR in the range of 16-17 should be achievable. Note that every cylinder needs to have the same AFR to make this work, otherwise you can only lean until the leanest cylinder hits the sweet spot and the rest run a bit richer than optimal.

After you have that optimal AFR the next critical factor is ignition timing. Low load conditions require a lot more ignition advance because you have two compounding factors slowing down the fuel burn: low cylinder pressure and lean mixture. The conventional Chevy HEI system targets 52* of advance under these conditions. This may be optimal or not... GM spent a lot of time with these cars in R&D but what were their engineering priorities? Your particular setup at this point may like something a little different then 52* optimally.

You can do this very well with a carb and HEI if you spend the time, know what you are doing (or learn), and make careful adjustments. But where EFI shines is in being able to hit that optimal spot and hold that optimal spot for all conditions. Once you have learned by tuning the carb/HEI, then you can step up to the EFI and take it to the next level. You probably will not get huge gains in Hwy MPG compared to a well tuned carb/HEI but you may get some gain in all around MPG with EFI.

Of course you can also take advantage of interesting possibilities in intake design with EFI that are much more difficult with carb. An intake optimized for EFI (rather than the mainstream carb manifold with throttle body on it used by most EFI setups) can give you more torque and MPG at the same time. Think long individual runners here for best air flow at lower RPMs.

 

[Pioneer4x4]

I agree with every thing you said, it can be done with a carb pretty close. But EFI can automatically give you the best performance, best MPG and best driveability and best emissions all at the time.
Another "but", to me, it is not worth over $2000 when the car already runs pretty good, has pretty good power, and is not a total pig on gas, and I have no idea on emissions, and being a 1967, I don't have to worry about it.
Speaking of tuning, I am going to post in general tech a question about tuning parts and spare emergency parts.

 

[ChevelleFan70]

I'll be honest, I did EFI just because I wanted to. I've played with computers since I was a kid in the early 80s, I work in Information Technology for a living and have always loved cars. EFI was just a merging of the two. I loved the idea of being able to tune it from the drivers seat with my laptop, without getting gas everywhere, in real time. If I had to cost-justify it, I would never do it. There's been a learning curve. But for me, I enjoy it, and the car does run really good.

-Dave

 

[vrooom3440]

Amen Dave, much the same boat here although my path has been to tune the carb and HEI first because they were on there and running. That has taught me much that will be useful when I complete the project cycle and install the EFI.

And I am going to EFI because of the adjustability and always optimized factors. I have explored the carb and HEI setup enough to find and understand their limitations. Especially with an HR296 roller cam on a 396...

 

[rsgthelmick]

Here is a link you might want to read about Howell EFI
http://www.rodandcustommagazine.com/techarticles/0906rc_throttle_body_injection/

 

[pist0lpete]

I recall reading a bit on thirdgens.org about the fuel injection setup from early 2000's safari vans which use a standard sbc. Supposedly it uses the same ecm as the LS1 f-bodies which makes it very tuneable. Might be worth digging into for a budget efi setup.

 

[Pioneer4x4]

Thanks for all the info, I will look into it all. I was originally thinking of a TBI system from the 1990s, maybe that van system is what I am looking for.

 

[Pioneer4x4]

Here is a link you might want to read about Howell EFI
http://www.rodandcustommagazine.com/techarticles/0906rc_throttle_body_injection/

That is very much like I was thinking. I skimmed it, thanks again!!!