Team Chevelle banner
1 - 20 of 21 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,221 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Been a member years ago but have had problems keeping up with logging on . Used to use computer now mostly phone. I have a 66 136 Chevelle cloned into a SS car , 468 vortecpro performance (625hp) on pump gas. Has a Holley 850 DP. Interestingly with the loose torque converter and th400/ GV overdrive combo it only produced 425 rear wheel hp !

anyways I’ve parked the Chevelle and built a LS1 1964 tempest that I’ve been driving a lot. 2 issues with the Chevelle caused that. Drivability and engine heat. I’m using SS gauges and they say car is warm (not hot) but pointing temp infrared at thermostat housing even when warmed up reveals 180 degrees (Normal) I happened to purchase an Alumnitech radiator for the 66 years ago put that in and still report same warm readings. I’m running a SWP and clutch fan setup with shroud. Belts always squealing during acceleration next upgrade should be electric fans and serpentine system . I have vintage air and power steering . Open for suggestions on a 66 ( not a lot of room in engine compartment)

also Holley has a 20% sale now and I have a sniper EFI kit but I hear that it’s not enough for this motor and was told to get terminator EFI set up . Tried to reach mark Jones at vortecpro but got no answer. Anyone converted their BBC making 600 ho to aftermarket Fuel injection?

thanks
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
225 Posts
If the Sniper is what you want the Xflow version will support what you have, as well as the 8 injector Super Sniper.

Are you using the factory temp gauge? I’d get an aftermarket on it temporarily to monitor and see what you’re actually at.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,221 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I got the 550-520 from a friend. His mechanic tried it on a Cadillac 500 ci motor and couldn’t get it to work well so he gave it to me. But I was told by a guy that the Holley terminator kit is the one to get. I see there is a super sniper good to 650 hp with 4 injectors … I was wondering if anyone has done a FI upgrade to their 600 + hp BBC with excellent results…..
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
2,016 Posts
It doesn't sound to me like you have a problem. It's warm and that is normal. I would stay away from an electric fan, nothing but trouble with an old electric system and it wont cool better than a clutch fan with a shroud. Get a better belt or your pulleys may be glazed from years of use. Spin them in a drill and use some sandpaper or scotch brite on the grooves.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,827 Posts
Been a member years ago but have had problems keeping up with logging on . Used to use computer now mostly phone. I have a 66 136 Chevelle cloned into a SS car , 468 vortecpro performance (625hp) on pump gas. Has a Holley 850 DP. Interestingly with the loose torque converter and th400/ GV overdrive combo it only produced 425 rear wheel hp !

anyways I’ve parked the Chevelle and built a LS1 1964 tempest that I’ve been driving a lot. 2 issues with the Chevelle caused that. Drivability and engine heat. I’m using SS gauges and they say car is warm (not hot) but pointing temp infrared at thermostat housing even when warmed up reveals 180 degrees (Normal) I happened to purchase an Alumnitech radiator for the 66 years ago put that in and still report same warm readings. I’m running a SWP and clutch fan setup with shroud. Belts always squealing during acceleration next upgrade should be electric fans and serpentine system . I have vintage air and power steering . Open for suggestions on a 66 ( not a lot of room in engine compartment)

also Holley has a 20% sale now and I have a sniper EFI kit but I hear that it’s not enough for this motor and was told to get terminator EFI set up . Tried to reach mark Jones at vortecpro but got no answer. Anyone converted their BBC making 600 ho to aftermarket Fuel injection?

thanks
I don't see an issue with temp here, you're trying to fix something that's not broken. Your issues sound more like tuning.
 
  • Like
Reactions: blue_69_malibu

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,870 Posts
I believe that a lot of that Holley stuff is on backorder right now......FWIW.

BTW: your 55 year old factory gauges are likely off. I bet if you were to run some new Auto Meter gauges, you'll see 180 degrees....which is likely the thermostat you have in there.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,753 Posts
Been a member years ago but have had problems keeping up with logging on . Used to use computer now mostly phone. I have a 66 136 Chevelle cloned into a SS car , 468 vortecpro performance (625hp) on pump gas. Has a Holley 850 DP. Interestingly with the loose torque converter and th400/ GV overdrive combo it only produced 425 rear wheel hp !

anyways I’ve parked the Chevelle and built a LS1 1964 tempest that I’ve been driving a lot. 2 issues with the Chevelle caused that. Drivability and engine heat. I’m using SS gauges and they say car is warm (not hot) but pointing temp infrared at thermostat housing even when warmed up reveals 180 degrees (Normal) I happened to purchase an Alumnitech radiator for the 66 years ago put that in and still report same warm readings. I’m running a SWP and clutch fan setup with shroud. Belts always squealing during acceleration next upgrade should be electric fans and serpentine system . I have vintage air and power steering . Open for suggestions on a 66 ( not a lot of room in engine compartment)

also Holley has a 20% sale now and I have a sniper EFI kit but I hear that it’s not enough for this motor and was told to get terminator EFI set up . Tried to reach mark Jones at vortecpro but got no answer. Anyone converted their BBC making 600 ho to aftermarket Fuel injection?

thanks
You must not be trying very hard. 719 650-1609
Chassis dyno numbers mean nothing. I can guarantee my dyno numbers are accurate. The engine you bought from me is compatible with fuel injection.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
17,977 Posts
As said, your cooling system seems fine. Using a 180 stat or 160? As Bob Tiley said, a simple mech setup works well if everything is stat. And again 180 is spot on.

My thought on EFI is simply that unless someone guarantee me a good limp mode and such, I wont risk being stranded along the highway. Maybe I'm on not up to speed on what's out there now in terms of factory like reliability.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,753 Posts
As said, your cooling system seems fine. Using a 180 stat or 160? As Bob Tiley said, a simple mech setup works well if everything is stat. And again 180 is spot on.

My thought on EFI is simply that unless someone guarantee me a good limp mode and such, I wont risk being stranded along the highway. Maybe I'm on not up to speed on what's out there now in terms of factory like reliability.
The car should have a 160 thermostat and sealed electric fans that run all the time, now most won't want to do that but that how my engines are utilized to their full potential. This engine had a 238/248 way to much for a 467 for a person who wants a mild driver. Remember Alans Vette made 440 RWHP and ran 10.59 @ 128.9 MPH @ 3700 pounds.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,221 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Well, the motor runs amazing still . For sure tuning is not the issue . The Holley 850 has no choke (divorced choke) therein lies the cold start issues. Will try roughing up pulleys and new belts . Mark I’ll try calling again later to see if you can recommend a good EFI setup for it , I have a fuel tank and pump and lines already just need a compatible kit (Holley, edlebrock etc) I’ll see what you tell me I’ll call tomorrow. Car still kicks ass on the street!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
250 Posts
I got one of his 496 producing 670hp so even more horses to cool.
With stock cooling setup I can tell you its running so cool its absurd for what it is, an all iron monster.

Its the stock setup, just using better components here and there.
Coolant temp wise i achieve 140 (crusing) to 170 (constant WOT on autobahn).
Oil runs on 160 (cruising) to 190 (constant WOT or multiple rev ups when standing).
Its impossible for me to surpass those numbers.
Its a nice feeling driving like i stole it for half an hour and then look at the gauges which tell me to keep going

Components used:
  • 160 EMP Stewart Thermostat with 3 bypass holes
  • Stage 2 mechanical water pump EMP Stewart with bypass hose between pump and intake
  • Hayden low profile heavy duty fan clutch
  • 7 blade fan with shroud
  • 4 row champion radiator
  • All Billet Specialties CNC pulleys
  • Dayco top cog belts
  • Undercover innovations upper radiator support to body cover (prevents recyling of hot engine bay air)

Its important to have your ignition timing right to keep heat radiation at bay.
So - thermodynamically speaking - you keep the combustion heat inside the chambers where the coolant can actually cool it.
Not outside in the headers via late timing where it heat ups the bay and therefore engine again, like a vicious circle.
This especially applies for cruise timing that happens most of the time.
I am on dense sea level air so i run pretty low WOT-numbers and still burn tires. (I admit, also to protect my drivetrain)
16° initial + 18° mechanical for a total of 34° @ 3800 (+8° vacuum / load compensation on manifold)
With the 95 fuel here thats a big margin of safety when flooring it.
But with the vacuum advance it definitely runs cooler, i tested back and forth and verified several times.
Its so easy to drive, its a joke..
But i got a manual, maybe thats why

PS: Startup is a charm when cold. AED 850 no choke. When hot it has too much compression and kicks the starter back, that happend with 18° initial timing. That was another reason that motivated me to reduce initial a bit down to 16. But anyway I got a dial back MSD knob with which i pull out 15° so i start it with 1° actually. Even hot starts are easy now
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
890 Posts
Your startup issue may be carb or timing related. My MJ406 has an AED 750 HPHO with no choke-horn and starts right up within the first few seconds. It started up this morning in 38* North FL. weather. A Carb runs amazing when/if tuned correctly. I like when everyone goes to EFI because of a poor running carb because I can buy them up cheap. My engine also has the 160* thermostat Mark recommends and the electric fan which is on a toggle switch. In the warmer months I turn it on after startup and never see temps past 185* with the A/C on in traffic (in a 100+ temp summer) . This morning I didn't even turn it on. I-10 HWY this morning for 35mi at 3000rpm and the temp didn't go past 180*.

Other than starting or the Carb, I'd suspect gauges as well and if you verify the 180* your good. Don't forget that the purpose of getting the 160* thermostat and elec. fans on early, is to get a handle on the temps BEFORE heat soak. Its easier to maintain good engine temps early than wait for the engine to be 190 or 200+, then try to cool it after its already hot. Everything has to work harder at that point.

The other misconception is going aluminum on a radiator runs cooler. Completely false. Coppers heat conductivity and dissipation is 50% better than Aluminum. The real reason people see a temp drop when going to Aluminum is usually because they're replacing an older and usually clogged radiator causing the overheat. And then add that the new Aluminum radiator has larger tubes and larger capacity is what allows it to keep up with the original Copper. Copper and Aluminum radiators being equal in size, Copper will always out perform Aluminum.

Other than the Carb, I'd suspect gauges as well and if you verify the 180* your good. Bob, brings up a good point when going to elec. fan and upgrading your wiring. And I will say 'use a relay'.

Mike
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
17,977 Posts
I;ve never even added the 3-4 degree of vacuum advance I have "scrolled" up in the distributor. Run a 160 T-stat as per Mark. AND I dont even run a proper temp guage, just the crummy oem SS sweep gauge. Yet the MJ runs at whatever the T stat is opening at. Stock recored Harrison, Hayden clutch, 7 or 8 blade M119 fan w. shroud.

PS it may help I;m not runnign trans lines thru the rad.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,710 Posts
As far as power loss you are right in there especially with a loose / bad converter - that can do a lot. A friend of mine had a 540 that did like 690-700 motor hp they put motor in car rolled into next room where there chassis dyno was and Shazam 520 rwhp. Now a real loose or bad converter could easily cost you another 5% or 25-30 hp over a good one. In general automatics with some kind of non stock / non lock up converter will loose 25+-% and stick cars are in the 15%-20% area. Also a Ford 9 inch will take about 15-20 more hp to turn than a 12 bolt. I would get one of these grill covers from I think they are called undercover engineering - helps direct the air to radiator instead of going over core support (very good for resting tools instead of falling on to ground). Also helps with high speed hood wiggle. Here is my set up. I run a Griffin with 2 12-inch Derale fans low profile. Seems to work well. As far as power steering brackets the best ones ironically are from a set up for an electric water pump - very strong and simple to use as they are designed for a non-water pump pulley system.

Automotive tire Hood Motor vehicle Automotive design Automotive fuel system
Automotive tire Hood Motor vehicle Automotive design Automotive fuel system


Vehicle Tire Automotive tire Motor vehicle Hood
Hood Motor vehicle Automotive design Automotive fuel system Automotive exterior
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,221 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
By writing “therein lies the cold start issues” referencing the 850 Holley DP with divorced choke, let me edit that comment by saying the car starts up easily be it cold or hot. However it won’t idle easily after cold overnight start unless I give it a little bit of gas or it’ll have to be restarted since there is no choke. Hot starts are no problem, it will immediately idle perfectly well with a serious sounding cam in it. Mark told me to not touch the timing from day one and that distributor hasn’t moved position in all 10 years I’ve had that motor. The issue for me is I can’t lean into the car turn it on and walk away with it idling I need to sit there and get it to warm up a bit before it idles by itself. I find it incredible that some people here have no chokes on their carbs and have no cold start idle issues ….

I’m just a lowly hobbiest /wrench turning on weekends and never go see “professional” mechanics. You guys are listing very good facts here and now that I’m familiar with my Iphone it sure is alot easier to use this website for getting info. Round here car shows have guys with cars that were built for them and most have no idea about the mechanics of the ride . So i turn here for ideas

let me say this: that 625 hp mark jones motor makes the Chevelle the favorite to get in and drive in my little stable of cars. It moves that car around easily on pump gas and sounds badass with a wicked idle. And Mark has always been to this day a stand up guy and a good resource (thanks Mark again)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
250 Posts
By writing “therein lies the cold start issues” referencing the 850 Holley DP with divorced choke, let me edit that comment by saying the car starts up easily be it cold or hot. However it won’t idle easily after cold overnight start unless I give it a little bit of gas or it’ll have to be restarted since there is no choke. Hot starts are no problem, it will immediately idle perfectly well with a serious sounding cam in it. Mark told me to not touch the timing from day one and that distributor hasn’t moved position in all 10 years I’ve had that motor. The issue for me is I can’t lean into the car turn it on and walk away with it idling I need to sit there and get it to warm up a bit before it idles by itself. I find it incredible that some people here have no chokes on their carbs and have no cold start idle issues ….

I’m just a lowly hobbiest /wrench turning on weekends and never go see “professional” mechanics. You guys are listing very good facts here and now that I’m familiar with my Iphone it sure is alot easier to use this website for getting info. Round here car shows have guys with cars that were built for them and most have no idea about the mechanics of the ride . So i turn here for ideas

let me say this: that 625 hp mark jones motor makes the Chevelle the favorite to get in and drive in my little stable of cars. It moves that car around easily on pump gas and sounds badass with a wicked idle. And Mark has always been to this day a stand up guy and a good resource (thanks Mark again)
tough time idling when engine is cold is about the most normal behaviour an engine can have.
Thats just the world of carburated high performance engines.
Modern ECUs let engines runs some time with higher idle (just like E-choke stuff) for exactly that reason (also emission stuff like faster cat converter heat up).
My engine also died off when i didnt hold a little more gas via pedal when engine was just started cold.
I talked to AED about that behaviour and they told me to high idle the car 30s (2000rpm) before driving off.
And.. oh wonder oh wonder.. after that it wont die anymore.

You basically replace the choke with 30s of high idle
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
890 Posts
Yes Sir. That changes my understanding of your issue. Yes most Carbs I've had in the cooler weather without a choke need that '30sec' of slight higher idle to warm and then can idle on its own. This morning when starting mine, I think I was into the idle for about 10 seconds and then it idled for about 5min before driving off. Some modify a Carb Idle Stop Solenoid with a toggle switch to 'high/er' idle the carb when needed. I actually have one on my AED Carb wired to the AC Compressor Switch so it bumps up my idle 200RPM with the AC on.

When Mark Dyno'ed mine, he used my distributor, and I haven't changed my timing either since his runs.

I agree that there are lots of great guys on here willing to help out and offer their knowledge. Things we sometimes never think about. Guys in this this thread are always there with help and knowledge.

Mike
 
  • Like
Reactions: Harris Roc Malouda

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,827 Posts
A lot of us do not run chokes and drive in cold weather. As stated above you have to raise the idle with your foot for a period of time depending on outside air temp. The colder it is the longer it takes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2/75NastyNewbs
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
Top