[BB_Mike]

Transmission rebuild - experience for diganosis [UPDATE]

EDIT - more broken stuff, see attached pictures and new reply...

I am rebuilding my first transmission. It is a 4L60E.
I have a full rebuild kit, a new Reaction Sun Shell part, and new clutches/steels.

I have some pictures hosted here:
http://www.chevelle-ss.com/Mike.htm

My questions are:

1) I do not know if I should remove the Lo/Reverse clutch parts, as I don't plan to replace any thing inside of there. I have removed everything up to that point. To go further, I believe I need to compress that Lo/Reverse assembly before removing the Large snap ring (against trans case) can be removed. I do not have this specific tool. Any ideas?

My known broken part is the Sun Shell.

2) There was about 3 visible metal pieces that where in between two gears. This area is called out by the picture with the red arrow. I was able to get out one of the pieces, and there is a picture of it on my finger. (I do not have fat fingers, sorry for the lack of scale). Assuming I can get a magnet-tool to remove the other pieces, would I still need to dig deeper into that last section of the trans?

3) Why will nothing more just "slide" out??? Shouldn't something more come out before I remove the large clip-ring?

3) Can I clean all of the parts with Carb' cleaner? Do I really need to clean all of the parts that just have the silvery dust on them? (i.e. isn't it good to have some clutch material in your fluid?)

If I can give other pictures, just let me know!

 

[Cameano]

Mike, you should be able to remove the large snap ring for the low/reverse clutch support, and it'll come right out with a couple of scribes hooked under it either side. The spring, part # 680, is a.k.a. the anti-clunk spring, and installs in a relief under the support, so once it's out, you should find it in there somewhere. If it's missing, it might have broken somehow, and might've had something to do with the sun shell failure. Not an expert on it, but I'm thinking it might be. If the spring is broke or missing, check the lugs in the case by the support. They do tend to wear over time, and the support will end up hanging up in the case. If they wear too far, the case can be damaged. Some shops will substitute the spring with a special piece of steel formed to fit, called a "case saver." Would work in stock applications, but not performance.

 

[shep_77]

I am not an expert and do not have any experiance with a 4l60. But I would think if you broke parts then there is metal peices in the trans and all parts that can be removed should be. Then clean everything extremely well and reassamble.

 

[BB_Mike]

I do think I need to take everything out, I was just concerned that the next step required a compression tool. I've since learned that is not true.

I still dont' know where the little fragments came from.
Hopefully I'll get the rest apart tonight.

 

[Dan72]

Yep, I'd go deeper. Probably won't find anything but you'll be kicking yourself later if something was still in there. Or if it doesn't work when you reassemble you'll always wonder...that includes the compression tool. It's easy for me to say, since I have one, but ya, you can go deeper still without it.

So I think you should try and get a compression tool, or make one like I did. In my experience under the low piston the cavity collects debris. I doubt large metal chunks would get there but I like to be hospital clean when I do one.BTW that snap ring (not the one you got, but the little 1" or so one that retains the low-rev spring assy) can be an SOB to get out...I always hated that thing. And I learned some new words the first few times I tried to reinstall that bugger. When you compress the spring array to reinstall it make sure you don't catch it on the lip of the snap ring groove.

Just an aside but I would replace ALL bearings while you are there. Again, too much work to R&R the thing, and you already have it apart, so why not do the bearings while you are there? Fresh bearings really tighten up the trans. And some of the bearings are ALWAYS worn out (or at least it seems like it), like the front pump bushing or the rear stator bushing.

As mentioned that spring goes between the case and the low-rev support, and is meant to absorb the shock of engagement. You will only see a little piece of it sticking up until the support is removed, it looks like a little piece of sheet metal sticking up through the support, maybe .125" wide by .060" thick.
In my experience getting the support out is a little harder than Cameano's experience, but he has the right method, the trick is to get it to come out square, not cocked, and in theory it should come right out. BTW part 675 should pull straight out right now, also. May make it easier to get the support assembly out.

The little cone-shaped piece looks like a part of a roller clutch or bearing to me. Maybe there is a little more damage than you think? It was in between the planets? Wrong size/shape to be a planet needle, have a good look at the roller clutch in the low/rev housing, IIRC its maybe that size (?)

I don't do enough of these, the last one was last Dec. so I am maybe a bad reference...

No, I don't think the little silver dust is good to have in your fluid. You certainly don't rely on abrasive debris in your fluid to make clutches lock up. All that does is contaminate circuits and ruin bearings. CLEAN EVERYTHING AS IF YOU ARE GOING TO EAT OFF IT!!! That's my preference for sure...

I know, I know, you don't have the compression tool or bushing drivers. My best advice is to get some, but it's up to you. Maybe some of the bushings can be changed with sockets, at least check them all. I doubt if your rebuild kit included bearings, either.

As Jake alluded originally when you had the 1st thread going your failure is pretty common, and usually no collateral damage. They usually break clean like yours did. Thats why the sneaky method was suggested. What worries me is that roller...and since you are already this far...

Don't forget that not all debris is magnetic either.

I HATE the R&R part...the rebuild itself is kinda fun. R&R sucks. That's why I will always replace even apparently good parts, unless the parts in question are brand new or something. I learned a long time ago not to try and save myself work/$, it only cost me more in the long run.

 

[BB_Mike]

I did get a couple of bushings with my kit.

along with about 30 different O-rings and seals. Half of which I don't have a clue where they go! The kit didn't even come with any kind of inventory. I just have to eye-ball and compare through a process of ellimination.

I have been thinking of compression tool ideas for the lo/reverse clutch. Just two plates. One with a nut welded to it, the other with a bolt going through a hole.

 

[Dan72]

Mike,


Yep, the no instructions thing is std. I think they assume you must know what you are doing if you have the nerve to be inside a tranny. For those making the transition its a little harder. Most of the seals can be identified by comparison...take the old one off carefully and match it up to the new one. None of the various seals are too close to each other in size/shape/material to be mixed up if you look closely, same with the bushings. The only exception is the servo seal and cover o-ring, which look very similar and they always make a point of telling you how to tell them apart.

You kit probably has the front pump bushing and the rear extension housing bushing, there are MANY others inside and as you know in a perfect world you world replace them all. I also prefer the front pump bushing to be teflon coated, and the one included in the kit almost certainly won't be. Watch that rear stator bushing!

Don't forget with the 2-plate homemade compressor you will need access in there to get snap rings off, etc. Two simple plates won't allow access. You need to have material in the center to interface with the bolt/threaded rod, yet you need access outside of that.

I used 2 LARGE washers to make mine: the first one formed the surface that does the compressing, the other one was cut into thirds to make the 3 fingers that press the first on down. The fingers all come together to meet the nut in the center, which rides on the length of threaded rod used to compress the whole thing. The other end was a round piece of plate with a hole through it that the rod goes through, followed by a nut. Welded it up nice, it looks exactly like a commercial compressor does. Because the nut is about 3 inches ABOVE the compression surface you can get in between to do stuff. Make any sense?

 

[Cameano]

Mike, I'd like to add a little tidbit to what Dan said about the lip seals. Never, ever remove more than one at a time, and replace it with the like part immediately. Reason is, they need to be installed the right way, and if you just start removing 2 or 3 at a time, you'll forget which way they go. Don't ask how I know this. :clonk:

 

[Dan72]

Mike, I'd like to add a little tidbit to what Dan said about the lip seals. Never, ever remove more than one at a time, and replace it with the like part immediately. Reason is, they need to be installed the right way, and if you just start removing 2 or 3 at a time, you'll forget which way they go. Don't ask how I know this.

Yep, good advice. I know someone who took everything completely apart, all seals, bearings, clutches, etc. Ended up delivering the thing in a box to a local builder.

Even when you've done a pile of em it's still best not to get ahead of yourself. I make a bunch of piles when I go thru a trans, sort of vertical stacks of parts in the order they are removed. Just makes it easier.

The L-shaped seals go in with the "L" facing back towards the source of oil, so that when they fill with oil they spread out and seal against the walls, as opposed to putting them in backwards and the oil forcing the seal AWAY from the wall.

Unless you like a challange!

 

[Yelsorc]

Mike, I'd like to add a little tidbit to what Dan said about the lip seals. Never, ever remove more than one at a time, and replace it with the like part immediately. Reason is, they need to be installed the right way, and if you just start removing 2 or 3 at a time, you'll forget which way they go. Don't ask how I know this. :clonk:

oh , I dont know. after you have done it for a couple decades it becomes easy to replace the lip seals .

the posted photos looks like the torrington bearing may have blown apart in the rear planetary . You will need to replace the planet , ring gear and the inner gear..... if you have not found that out by now.

If you reused any of the gears with little nicks , they wil make noise. The gears may also be fractured and not noticable to the human eye

 

[BB_Mike]

Crosley.
good call. But don't go into fortune telling with such bad news to predict.

More pictures...
http://www.chevelle-ss.com/Mike.htm

The torrington bearing did blow up.
When you say to replace all of those things, does that include the support gear/housing for the reaction gear (aka planetary thingy). Or can this bearing be replace by a machien shop without having to buy a new one?

-Will the local GM parts place carry what I need?
-Is it sinceless to purchase "billet performance parts" from TCI or the like?
TCI sells the "700R4/4L60E 5-Pinion Rear Planetary" for $155.

Please look at the pictures and comment on the lower set of three showing the new damage.

 

[BB_Mike]

This place http://www.magma.ca/~myrenaya/4l60e_competition_parts.htm

Makes mention of a roller bearing replacement kit.
I wonder if the new replacement ones will come with the same style bearings or not?

 

[Guest]

Mike,
Bulkpart has the new torringtons in a kit.
I would replace the rear planets, you don't NEED the 5 pinion models, stock ones will work.
You could get the parts from GM but they will probably want list.

I think bulkpart has planets too...

I usually rob a core if I have a questionable planetary.

be sure ya check the low/reverse roller clutch for damage.

 

[BB_Mike]

Damn. when you first turned me on to "bulk part", I thought you said, "bulkparts.com" That latter is some crappy search engine type site. Damn it all. That just makes me want to get freakin' upset. I am STILL waiting on my sun shell from "transmichigan.com"

So are you saying that just the bearing can be replaced?
I know they sell the kits, but the other bearings all look fine.

I found the 4-pinion rear planet gear for $60. Maybe they have some other parts I need?

 

[BB_Mike]

Oh yeah,
What about the punch marks on the Low-Rev' Intenal Reaction Gear/Support thing

I can't think of what the hell would cause those divot marks, so I'm assuming it is good to go.

Building motors is much easier mostly becuase there are far less parts, and more simpler NAMES used. Some this crap reads like a Dr. Suess book.

 

[Cameano]

oh , I dont know. after you have done it for a couple decades it becomes easy to replace the lip seals .

Tony, true, I'll give you that one. But Mike's a virgin on this one, we have to guide him properly.

BTW, Mike, I notice a lot of late night posts by you. You work second shift, I take it?

 

[BB_Mike]

Darren,
I work from about 9:00am to 4:30pm, and sometimes have a school class in the evening. After that I get into working on the transmission. I'm just more of a night person.

 

[Dan72]

Mike,


In order of your posts and PM:

See what I mean about daily experience? Tony got her right away! :thumbsup: Good eye.

As Jake said GM can get you stuff but unless you have the employee discount its gonna be big $. Some stuff is priced okay, but not hard parts.

BTW the site is www.bulkpart.com, there is no "s" on the end. They have used parts including the planetaries and bearing kits, etc. You can also try ebay. If you have a choice try and get a newer version with the "bat wing thrust washers", they were less apt to sling the lube off than earlier versions.


Here is the rear planet (4 pinion) for $60. http://www.bulkpart.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=2&Product_Code=A74584A

They also have the 5 pinion but not worth it in a stock vehicle, IMO. http://www.bulkpart.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=2&Product_Code=A74584C&Category_Code=4L60E-4L65Ehp&Product_Count=1 $90

OR

You CAN replace just the bearing if you get the pinions out. Some places sell a "pinion rebuilding kit" that includes all new thrust washers, needles, etc, plus a replacement for the rivets that have to be removed. While it's out the torrington can be changed. As others have said since a bearing blew up the pinions might be damaged, and you might not be able to see it with the naked eye.

Here is bulkparts list of bearings and thrust washers, selective washers, etc.
http://www.bulkpart.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=2&Category_Code=4L60E-4L65Ewasher
The torrington kit is the one you need for sure, unless you buy a single part from a generic bearing house. Chances are if you do it that way you will wait longer and pay more, just get the kit.

Here are the plain bearings, aka bushings:
http://www.bulkpart.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=2&Category_Code=4L60E-4L65Ebushing

re:

This place http://www.magma.ca/~myrenaya/4l60e...ition_parts.htm

Makes mention of a roller bearing replacement kit.
I wonder if the new replacement ones will come with the same style bearings or not?

The stock bearings in those location is a thrust washer. The kit you are looking at upgrades the more failure-prone thrust washers to a roller. Its useful but not what you are imagining it was.

Not sure about the divot marks, I haven't been in one in a while but they look to be too evenly spaced to be anything but intentional. If the splines go together and fit tight you are a-ok.

transmichigan - did you get an upgraded sun shell or a replacement?

Hang in there! Think of all the $$$ you are saving and gd stuff you are learning!

 

[BB_Mike]

I'm still hanging in there.

I did order the "beast sun shell". I do not yet know if it will arrive with the special washer that goes behind it. Bulkpart sells it for $1.00, so I will add it in my order along with the rear planetary gear.

My kit came with two bushings. I know one is for the front input shaft at the pump. Maybe the other will become evident later on.

So far, I am saving $1,250 dollars. But if this task lasts through thanksgiving, the chevelle gas alone may add up to that!

 

[Dan72]

I know one is for the front input shaft at the pump. Maybe the other will become evident later on.

Should be output shaft bushing (in the rear extension housing)