Trans...m22 or t-10
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Well, i think they are about the same performance wise. My brother has a Super T-10 behind a big block and it has taken all the abuse we can dish out. Just be sure to have a good shop go over it and replace any needed parts if its marginal. Especially the bearings. If they are old they tend to spread and open up the clearances , then boom.
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1,360 Posts
I have used both, with success. I have a T-10 now, only cuz I couldnt find an M22 that was affordable! Good advice to go through any used part you buy. Good luck!
One difference is the st10 doesn't whine like a m22.I've got the m22 just for the sound but reliability in both is marginally the same.In my opinion one is as good as the other.The only bad thing I've heard about the st10 is that they will sometimes gall the gears for no apparent reason.I've seen both break gears.basically just personal preferance.
BTW I just saw a st10 go for $500 with shifter this fall.You probably won't ever see a m22 for that price.
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John 67SS
[This message has been edited by John (edited 02-28-99).]
BTW I just saw a st10 go for $500 with shifter this fall.You probably won't ever see a m22 for that price.
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John 67SS
[This message has been edited by John (edited 02-28-99).]
I have a Muncie M20 in my '69 that has held up fine thru the normal abuse with street tires. I know a guy with an NHRA K/S '79 Malibu wagon that told me he broke Muncies in it, then put a Super T10 in it and hasn't broken one yet. He says Muncies will break usually the cluster gear when subjected to many hard launches with slicks. He thinks Muncies will probably hold up with street tires. von
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704 Posts
You forgot one important part of the drive train. What ratio gears you'll be running.
The Muncie M20 is good with gear ratios 3.73
and lower numerically but rev like heck with 4.10 and higher. The Muncie M21 and M22 are good rev wise with 3.73 and higher numerically geared ratio, and work best with 4.10 and up. The T-10 is a good tranny even though it weights twice as much as a Muncie. I had T-10's in my new Z's back in 77,78,80.
I still like the Muncie even though I hadn't
rebuilt a T-10 before as I have a Muncie.
One more point about the T-10 that were used in the 77-79 Z's, with 3.73 gears at 70 mph the car will rev at 3500 rpm.
Mark
[This message has been edited by COPO (edited 03-01-99).]
The Muncie M20 is good with gear ratios 3.73
and lower numerically but rev like heck with 4.10 and higher. The Muncie M21 and M22 are good rev wise with 3.73 and higher numerically geared ratio, and work best with 4.10 and up. The T-10 is a good tranny even though it weights twice as much as a Muncie. I had T-10's in my new Z's back in 77,78,80.
I still like the Muncie even though I hadn't
rebuilt a T-10 before as I have a Muncie.
One more point about the T-10 that were used in the 77-79 Z's, with 3.73 gears at 70 mph the car will rev at 3500 rpm.
Mark
[This message has been edited by COPO (edited 03-01-99).]
G
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·If you want a hard launch, I'd go for the T-10. Personally, I use an M-20 (2.52 1st gear) with 4.56s in the rear. When I first tried this combination, I was afraid it was going to drive like a Peterbilt in 1st gear, but actually it's really nice. It's no more gear than a T-350 would have in 1st.
G
Guest
·If you want a hard launch, I'd go for the T-10. Personally, I use an M-20 (2.52 1st gear) with 4.56s in the rear. When I first tried this combination, I was afraid it was going to drive like a Peterbilt in 1st gear, but actually it's really nice. It's no more gear than a TH-350 would have in 1st.
You've asked the age old question. I ask this question every time I talk to a trans guy or any time the subject comes up. The general consesus is that, of the production transmissions available the M22 is strongest. However the ST10 is no slouch and I hear that the early steel case ST10s sold as replacement trans for Muncies had nickel gears. If you can get your hands on one of those you have a trans that is stronger than the M22, quieter and there is a variety of ratios.
I talked with a guy that is running an 8.5 sec 69 Chevelle w/ a Liberty 5 speed (a Jericho would not take it). He told me that he has used all the trans thru the years and he preferred the ST10 because it shifted better at high RPMs. That is a consideration if you will be slaming gears at 7K or so.
On gear ratios, I am here to tell you that a 2.64 1st gear w/ 373s is getting pretty deep and traction can be a problem. Consider that w/ 4.10 gears your overall 1st gear ratio is a follows:
TRANS
PG(BB) 7.22
PG(SB) 7.46
TH350 10.33
TH400 10.17
700R4 12.55
2004R 11.23
M20 10.33
M21/22 9.02
ST10 9.96 (W/2.43 1st)
ST10 10.82 (W/2.64 1st)
ST10 11.81 (W/2.88 1st)
I use a ST10 behind a LS7 and I worry about it. I have broken both a ST10 and a M20. But I am still searching for that strong combination. I am always looking for an early ST10 w/ high nickel gears. You can also still buy nickel gears for the ST10. I haven't priced these gears but I imagine I can buy a Jericho 4 speed ($2500) for the price of beefing up a ST10 with nickel gears.
Unless you are making BIG horsepower or running gears deeper than 3.73s you will probably be well served with either the Muncie or the BW. Hope this helps.
Mike
I talked with a guy that is running an 8.5 sec 69 Chevelle w/ a Liberty 5 speed (a Jericho would not take it). He told me that he has used all the trans thru the years and he preferred the ST10 because it shifted better at high RPMs. That is a consideration if you will be slaming gears at 7K or so.
On gear ratios, I am here to tell you that a 2.64 1st gear w/ 373s is getting pretty deep and traction can be a problem. Consider that w/ 4.10 gears your overall 1st gear ratio is a follows:
TRANS
PG(BB) 7.22
PG(SB) 7.46
TH350 10.33
TH400 10.17
700R4 12.55
2004R 11.23
M20 10.33
M21/22 9.02
ST10 9.96 (W/2.43 1st)
ST10 10.82 (W/2.64 1st)
ST10 11.81 (W/2.88 1st)
I use a ST10 behind a LS7 and I worry about it. I have broken both a ST10 and a M20. But I am still searching for that strong combination. I am always looking for an early ST10 w/ high nickel gears. You can also still buy nickel gears for the ST10. I haven't priced these gears but I imagine I can buy a Jericho 4 speed ($2500) for the price of beefing up a ST10 with nickel gears.
Unless you are making BIG horsepower or running gears deeper than 3.73s you will probably be well served with either the Muncie or the BW. Hope this helps.
Mike
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138 Posts
I had a T-10 behind a 454 BB - blew first gear to pieces during a hard launch put in a muncie 22 - haven't had a problem for about 7 years. I am running this in a 1970 Monte Carlo with a RAM three finger metallic racing clutch. Rear axle is 4.10
My $.02
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My $.02
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What's the difference between a T10 and a Super T10? Just curious. On the strength issue, I have an old magazine with an article on the Baldwin-Motion '70 Camaro A/MP drag car. It said they went to a Chrysler 4 speed to lessen beakage. This was in '71. von
Von, I don't know all the differences but they are different. The most glaring difference is the yoke size. The ST10 uses the large yoke. The Chrysler A-833 is hailed as the strongest production tranny made. The factory even modified them for racing and they became known as "slick shifts". There is a decent article in the November 98 issue of Car Craft, "Power Shift Tips From the Legends" page 58. Have A Great Day.
Mike
Mike
ST10 are not plentiful in my area or all the hot rodders just throw them in the corner because they don't think they are worth anything. The last ST10 I bought cost me $500 w/ an 11 inch clutch and bellhousing. It came from a '79 Corvette. The below is a quote from Paul Blaccard in response to a question I asked on the bullentin board at the this site www.gearzone.net
By Paul Blaccard (Admin) on Tuesday, October 27, 1998 - 07:46 am:
To Mike Crosby: You cannot tell from the outside of your ST10 if your gears are 9310 nickel. Nickel alloy gears have drill marks that Identify them as such. A drill mark is a 11/32 OD hole that looks like someone started to drill a hole but stopped. Here goes: The input will have a drill mark where the ID of the front bearing presses on it right below the snap ring groove. The cluster will have a drill mark on the front face above the thrust washer surface. 1st has a drill mark on the back side. 2nd and 3rd have drill marks between the ID bore and the synchro cone surface on the front side.
Just a little more info for all Hope this helps.
Mike
[This message has been edited by Mike Crosby (edited 03-03-99).]
By Paul Blaccard (Admin) on Tuesday, October 27, 1998 - 07:46 am:
To Mike Crosby: You cannot tell from the outside of your ST10 if your gears are 9310 nickel. Nickel alloy gears have drill marks that Identify them as such. A drill mark is a 11/32 OD hole that looks like someone started to drill a hole but stopped. Here goes: The input will have a drill mark where the ID of the front bearing presses on it right below the snap ring groove. The cluster will have a drill mark on the front face above the thrust washer surface. 1st has a drill mark on the back side. 2nd and 3rd have drill marks between the ID bore and the synchro cone surface on the front side.
Just a little more info for all Hope this helps.
Mike
[This message has been edited by Mike Crosby (edited 03-03-99).]
the difference is pretty major between the t-10 and the super t-10. the t-10 was used in gm cars up to mid 1963.this trans was used in full size and corvettes both. although it was used behind bigblocks, i would recommend against using this transmission. the super t-10 is a better choice. it was used in the late 60's on up, mostly corvette usage, both big and small blocks. it's a pretty strong piece. parts are more available for them than for m-22's.
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