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Discussion Starter #1
Ok, here is my stab a rocking the boat. What laws exist or are being proposed that threaten our hobby? For instance I was shocked to read in one of the Restoration Review magazines that Year One puts out that there are car crushing laws in already in California that target the older, heavier polluting cars. I also believe there are proposed "mandatory retirement" laws being floated about as states struggle to find ways to keep the feds from holding back highway money. Anyone up on this subject? Should there be a separate forum to keep everyone informed? How about an update in Aces magazine? Ideas, comments?
John Walker
 

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It's called the "clunker law".We need to get in touch with our representative/congressman and let him know that we know that the big factories that are buying credits by crushing older cars is not going to stop them from still putting out the same amount of pollutants and the credits have no affect on that.These old cars are our enjoyment and crushing them isn't changing how much pollution is being produced.We need to make sure this is stopped!

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John 67SS
 

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I think the current threat is not so much in losing your car, but in losing the parts cars, as it's the basket cases are being bought up and crushed. That's not to say we shouldn't be concerned about our cars...I'm sure the writings on the wall. I would think that no matter what happens they'll never make the classics illegal, probably just harder to justify and register.
 

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I have read some about this issue in several different publications. I'm anxious to see what happens if and when the government tells people that own antique cars such as Model T Fords, Stutz Bearcats or Deusenbergs, etc., that they have to bring in their old cars for crushing. I don't think there is a fan anywhere on the planet large enough to handle the load when it hits. You guys in Fairbanks Alaska will be able to hear me clearly when I start yelling because they want my 56 Vette!

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Discussion Starter #5
Let me throw another one in. Today either NY City or NY State made it legal for the cops to seize your car if you are DUI. You do not have to be convicted of anything but your ride is gone. Why not speeding? Drag racing? One stoplight grand prix and poof! your walking? I agree I can't conceive of the pollution cops knocking on the door and asking for the keys, but the trend is not good, just want us to keep an eye open for this kind of nonsense.
John Walker
 

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JMW:
Minnesota also passed a similar law effective January 1, 1999. It has to be either the second or third DUI, or DWI offense, not sure exactly (luckily it doesn't affect me), but it is an eye opener for sure! one thing they were doing for second or third offenders here was assigning a special license plate beginning with WX if you needed to drive to work. Every vehicle in the household that was available to the offender had to pay extra to get these plates, and just having them was probable cause to pull you over. Makes you think twice if you've had a couple drinks!!!!
 

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First, I can't see how anyone can feel bad for someone who looses their car as a result of a DUI. I don't agree with the taking it w/o trial & conviction, but if you're shown to be under the influence, you deserve whatever they want to dish out. If all they loose is a car, they should be thankful.

As for clunker laws, these are only a threat to parts cars and junkers. There will never be a day where the Gov't comes and takes our cars. This simply won't occur. Anyone who tells you that the men in black are going to show up at your garage with a flatbed has been watching too many episode of the X-files. They probably also think that the bar codes on the back of road signs are for the martial law takeover of the country.

What will happen is mandates for cars with less polluting engines and better mileage. As a result, 2 things will happen:

First, as cars use less fuel, the per gallon costs will go up. This is simple economics. The oil companies will have to raise prices in order to make up for lower usage.

Second, the chemical makeup of fuel will change. We've already seen this with the elimination of lead. In order to make it cleaner, things will change. The first thing to go will be the sulfur, and if you watch the news, you know this is already in the works.

Because of this, it will be harder and more expensive to fine gas we can run our cars one. Yes, it will be available, but it’ll cost much more. So much in fact that many people will either get rid of the car, or convert to an engine which runs cleaner. There isn’t any reason you can’t run your 70SS on an engine that’s designed to be cleaner and more efficient. Anyone who buys a GM crate motor is already doing it.


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The 68 Chevelle info page. [last updated Nov. 30, 98]
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Writing your congress critter does absolutely no good at all. Your representatives are beholden to the people with the money. Right now, those people are the bleeding heart, tree hugging liberals. Doesn't matter if they are Dems or Repubs. Their votes go to the money. I catch it double because not only am I into cars, I'm also an avid gun collector. What can we do? 1. Educate the masses (That is, put on car shows, car shows, and more car shows) 2. Mind your own driving habits. Every time someone is involved in a bad accident or is caught street racing in one of these cars, the "lets get these damn hot rodders" crowd starts whining and bitching, and they start calling for tougher laws and for "getting the damn old cars off the street." 3. Let's find and identify these liberals and their orginizations and flood their offices with pictures of old classics. (They use the same tactics to make their positions known) They assume all old cars are junk. They need to know better. Maybe we can reach someone whose dad once owned a 68 Chevelle, or a 69 Charger or an 67 Mustang. 4. Prepare for the worst. Be ready to hide your car if it ever comes to that. Not everyone knows someone in a rural area with a barn, but if you do, stay friends with this person. Otherwise, do the best you can to conceal it. Large cities can also be good hiding places. Am I paranoid?
A little. But we're talking about a government that has considered locking the hood of YOUR car and fining you if you if you try to work on your own vehicle. Just something to think about here, folks.
 

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Well I have been reading the above posts with interest. So a lot of people don't believe that we won't loose our cars to the polution patrol. Here in California there is a group called Blue Water Inc. They figured a way to get MTBE put into gasoline to clean up the air. Problem is that it is getting into our lakes, streams and drinking water. The state made the oil company put this shxx in and now they are reluctant to make them stop. (Since they spent million on building plants to make the Shxx. So the solution was to ban all personnal water craft and outboard motor boats on about 60% of the lakes here and within 2 miles of the ocean coast line for most of California for personnal water craft only. And if you believe they're done, don't you believe it. By the way MTBE is showing up in lakes that have never see a boat. So it must be in the air also. This clunker
 

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I must say there are a few house reps speakers whatever left in C.A., or they have some pay off money. We dont have to smog under 73 which several people fought for, amazingly the road side sniffers diapeared for now. In 97 things were lookin bad but seemed to work out for car enthusiests. How long will it last ? As for the clunker law, Word is the big oil company C.... S... so on crushed cars for credit on refinery waste some how less car pollutants is equal to there polluting mistakes. Its all about money. Thats rumor though. This site is a getta way, dont ruin it with goverment crap and upset us. Keep it out of team chevelle. I'm young and its very sad to see the way the world is going these first 30 years. Wants in store the next 30. Enjoy it while you can !!!
 

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I must say there are a few house reps speakers whatever left in C.A., or they have some pay off money. We dont have to smog under 73 which several people fought for, amazingly the road side sniffers diapeared for now. In 97 things were lookin bad but seemed to work out for car enthusiests. How long will it last ? As for the clunker law, Word is the big oil company C.... S... so on crushed cars for credit on refinery waste some how less car pollutants is equal to there polluting mistakes. Its all about money. Thats rumor though. This site is a getta way, dont ruin it with goverment crap and upset us. Keep it out of team chevelle. I'm young and its very sad to see the way the world is going these first 30 years. Wants in store the next 30. Enjoy it while you can !!!
 

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Byfield:
Whew, your item #1 is dangerous thinkin. One could go the next step very easily, an say "Why stop there, take his home, shoot, take everything". Everything is not black an white, there are shades of gray.
 

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c'mon, I'm not advocating that people get stripped of all their worldly possesions.

If you take alook at what happens in a number of other counties when someone is caught for DUI, I think you'll agree that loosing a car is no big deal. And I don't just mean so-called 2nd and 3rd world places either. There are a number of places where you simply lose the right to drive, forever. Other places have manditory jail terms and huge fines.

Some people may thing this is oppressive, but these places also have DUI rates of almost nothing. I also don't view this as infringing on my rights at all. Don't get me wrong, I'll be the in the front lines on the day someone comes to take my Winchester, and it'll be a cold day before I give up my Chevelle for any pollution legislations, but I'll also be first in line to vote for tougher laws on DUI.

Of course, this is just my opinion, and everyone's got one.

Kurt

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The 68 Chevelle info page. [last updated Nov. 30, 98]
www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/6873/Chevelle/68_Chevelle_Info.html
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Byfield: I though simple economics was the "supply and demand" thing. Large supply with low demand means real low prices. Of course they could always create another artifical low supply. Though I think the real increase would be seen in gas taxes, much the same as the government is doing with cigarettes taxes now...if they can't make it illegal, they'll just try to tax it out of existance. Say, there's an idea for the gun control crowd...an ammo tax
 

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Gene: You are correct, and that state will exist, but only for a short time. Once the oil companies see there is low demand and low profit, they'll stop making the fuel we need (for our old cars, not cars in general). At that point, supply goes down and price goes up.

Gas Tax: About every year or so, they try to do a $0.01 gas tax around here. Not for pollution or that type for thing, but for valid stuff like road repairs. Andit's not a huge tax like some places have tried to pass either.

People go absolutely ape-sh*t crazy. The papers get filled with how this will cause everyone to go broke, how it's unfair to the poor, etc..etc. Apparently nobody has ever bothered to do the math on this.

Figure that you drive 20,000 miles a year.
You get 25 mpg.

This equates 800 gallons of fuel. A $0.01 tax per gallon adds up to a whole $8. If that's what they want from me and in return I get an interstate without potholes, I'd be happy to send the check to them today.

Gun Control: I have the perfect solution - guns can stay legal, but there's a caliber restriction. Nothing under 20mm


Kurt


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The 68 Chevelle info page. [last updated Nov. 30, 98]
www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/6873/Chevelle/68_Chevelle_Info.html
Email: [email protected]
 

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Regarding the DUI-seizure issue: Anyone who thinks he has a right to drive even if a little intoxicated doesn't deserve to have a driver's license. Period. I’ve lost a few innocent friends to DUI drivers over the years. It’s saddening. I have to say I agree with Byfield about the consequences of a DUI. (Same goes for street racing, for that matter.) And those who think that the "government" will then take your home, your wife, kids, etc., are simply paranoid. Employ some common sense for cryin’ out loud!

Regarding the pollution issue: Old cars pollute way, way, way, way more than new cars. There is no argument there. I’ve worked in the pollution industry for several years and the increasing pollution stats are alarming. Those who think that they should be able to drive their old cars unconditionally based on nothing more than the “want” to drive their old cars are being just as selfish as the "tree-hugging environmentalist wackos" who want to rid the planet of every last vintage car. The key is to find a solution, and that will mean compromise on the part of old car owners. It’s as simple as that. I don’t understand why many old car owners think they have no obligation to the environment. Maybe it’s because they have never had to be accountable in the area before. Well...times change and (like the laws against DUI) the change is usually for the best interest of society. Quit being so damn selfish and look at the big picture.

I own a few classic autos, including two Chevelles. I love my Chevelles like you wouldn't believe. But that love in and of itself shouldn't automatically grant me the right forever to drive them unconditionally; I don’t have the right to pollute the air just because I feel the need or the urge to drive a gas guzzler. (Likewise, I don’t have the right to pollute a lake just because I feel like using a Jetski which, by the way, has no emissions control and can shoot as much as 60% of its emissions directly into the water. Think about that next time you jump in for a swim.) Driving is a privilege, not a right. And if the driving rules change, so must my acceptance of them. Why should my hobby be exempt from rules and conditions?

With regards to the “crusher law,” who in the world really sees the need for some old broken down, oil burning, rusted out *uncollectible* mid-60s wreck on the road? Before rushing to defend or defeat the law, proposed or in place, learn the facts! There is a lot if misinformation out there (including some of the above replies). The cars in our garages are safe and probably always will be. Maybe owning that SS 454 will mean paying more registraion fees, but it won't mean pulling the engine to replace it with an electric motor or sending itto the crusher! More than likely, our leisure to drive our cars at our discretion will not change in our lifetime; maybe it will in our children’s lifetime, but that will be their world and their decision.
 

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I thought things were looking better somewhere I read California Governer lowered the polluton control limit on vehicles prior to 1974 stating that they are a very small percent of automobiles and are usuallly in good running con
 

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There is only one group fighting for motorist rights. www.motorists.org

Join the National Motorists Association or be bulldozed by ill-informed do-gooders who have a bad "solution" to both real and imagined problems.

I've been a member since the mid-'80's. Strongly recommended!
 

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Byfield,

In regards to taking possesions, during the smog delema if you had a vehicle sitting in your drivway un registered that vehicle could be impounded. No homeowners association, were talkin Mr. Law. I dont know if the law is in effect or not. Also the way that the goverment can rid of that 70SS or are pride and joy is reduce emission tolerances (as California has done) to were vehicles new in the 60s-70s cant pass todays standards, Make you smog that old car every year to insure it is in compliance.
Example in late 96 a friend had a 84 ford pick-up totally stock. FAILED new standards emisions FAILED 3 times $1,300.00 later he is slapped with a gross polluter registration with added registering fees. Who wants a vehicle that is going to put you through that? If big brother tries this on are pried and joy were one step closer to civil war.
 

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The only way government can control honest people is to slap so many laws on them that they break some law every time they step out their front door. 1bad made that point when he stated that all the legislature has to do is hold older cars to new car standards. As for the comment above stating that big brother will never come after your possessions or take your rights away, wake up! I agree they won't take everything at once, they'll just nibble away at them over a period of time until one day you wake up and poof, your rights have all disappeaared. That's what's happening to our hobby now. How much harder is it to get a car registered now than it was ten years ago. Here in Texas, it is a nightmare to register a classic purchased in another state. And the pollution laws have been discussed to death here. Again, they just keep adding a little more each year until passing inspection becomes impossible. What's next? Classic car fees? Higher fees for cars older than 15 years? Registration fees that multiply each year? These things have been or are being considered in many states and at the federal level. Even horsepower limits have been considered at one time. The government will choke us to death if only we allow them. Better a little paranoid and prepared than surprised with a shocked open mouthed look on my face. And as for the mid 60's wrecks, one man's trash is another man's treasure. I know people who collect old Lincolns, Ford Galaxies, Pontiac Bonnevilles, etc...Each to his own. Disclaimer: I have no intention of using this sight as some right wing anti government forum, but reality is reality. These are important issues that affect our hobby and we should all keep our eyes and ears open. The saving grace is this. Classic car restoration has become a big money business in just the last few years, and that along with the big bucks in motorsports (Nascar, NHRA) will hopefully keep our hobby alive for many years. (Remember, the legislators go towards the money.) And Al, please accept my apologies if I'm coming off to strong on the government issues.

[This message has been edited by Randy Mosier (edited 02-23-99).]
 
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