the '416' head thread

107586 Views 79 Replies 13 Participants Last post by BrocLuno, May 6, 2014

big_orange

Discussion Starter · May 12, 2010

Wow definitely some interest and difference of opinions on the ole 305 HO heads! The timing couldnt be more perfect for this experiment, as im building a LOW buck smallblock for project 'bottom dollar'- a 75 Monza coupe drag car for the family, buddies and myself to thrash on when we feel the need...... and plan to run a set of factory heads on it.
I am a BIG fan of the vortec heads, but theres been some talk about these 416 castings working very well with minimal work, and those small chambers would really boost compression too!
I still say vortec is the way to go, as they kick butt right out of the box (and REALLY wake up with a quick exhaust port job) but since I have an old set of 416s in the corner and no vortecs, lets see what happens!
Follow along as the work begins:thumbsup:

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big_orange

Discussion Starter · #2 · May 12, 2010

FLOW NUMBERS!
stock 416s, right off the motor, untouched. tested at 28" on superflow SF600 bench, 4.06 bore. clay radius @ intake port, no pipe on exhaust.

IN EX

.1- 49/41
.2- 103/82
.3- 153/105
.4- 180/115
.5- 184/118
.6- 185/120

Obviously, if you have a good used set of vortecs, use them, as they flow approx 220/135 in stock form, and 225/170 with a quick fluff n buff.
However, before spending 550-600 a pair for new vortecs, you might be better off getting a set of reworked 416s....im feeling confident that these babys will match the vortecs easily with a 1.94 valve and some bowl and chamber work!!!!

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Reactions: 1

kettbo

· #3 · May 12, 2010

this could get interesting. Thanks for your work here :thumbsup:

jeff swisher

· #4 · May 12, 2010

What did the 416 have in it as far as the intake valve diameter...
if it is 1.84 be nice to see what you get with a bowl cleanup and the stock valve

richietables

· #5 · May 12, 2010

Thanks, Scott for starting this thread- The Vortec one really got hijacked and I'm a big part of the blame. Like I said, the low-budget solution for a 283 buildup made either 416's or 601's a no-brainer (good thing, I'm not so smart sometimes...:wacko

My option was to use the double humps still sitting on my 327; but even the 64 cc's were to big and the compression would drop. Likewise, anything bigger than a 1.94" valve wouldn't fit the small bore. Mine are done 1.94"/1.50".

jeff swisher

· #6 · May 12, 2010

here are some numbers i got with a 601 head my first set
stock valves 1.84 & 1.50's and stock factory valve job just blending the bowls and lapping the valves,and some chamber work
The throats were opened up to .85% on this heads
I will be curious as to how the 416 heads do ...I need to finish the 1.94-1.60 "601" castings i am working on..did not plan to flow them but i could.

IN EX

.1-----
.2-116/95
.3-166/127
.4-199/159
.5-208/171
.6-211/174

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Highway Star

· #7 · May 12, 2010

This is going to be cool. Looks like the baseline has been established.:thumbsup:

BillsCamino

· #8 · May 12, 2010

Kinda sounds a lot like the 283 I recently built...

big_orange

Discussion Starter · #9 · May 12, 2010

jeff swisher said:
What did the 416 have in it as far as the intake valve diameter...
if it is 1.84 be nice to see what you get with a bowl cleanup and the stock valve

these had the stock 1.84/1.5 valves, and that is exactly what the plan is..to see what they will go to without a bigger valve:thumbsup:

the intake throats are already huge, and theres not much room for a nice cut below the 45 on the seat. Ive got some tricks up the old sleeve though!

richietables said:
Thanks, Scott for starting this thread- The Vortec one really got hijacked and I'm a big part of the blame. Like I said, the low-budget solution for a 283 buildup made either 416's or 601's a no-brainer (good thing, I'm not so smart sometimes...:wacko My option was to use the double humps still sitting on my 327; but even the 64 cc's were to big and the compression would drop. Likewise, anything bigger than a 1.94" valve wouldn't fit the small bore. Mine are done 1.94"/1.50".

This whole thing started when Jake (highway star) mentioned something about small chamber heads and i told him the vortecs are small-ish just like 305 heads. Talk about foot-in-mouth when I actually cc'd one of these 416s WOW! Had NO idea!
I love them small inch smallblocks, but never realized there was a halfway decent budget factory head with a small enough chamber to make any compression. These things would be an absolute A+ on a little 283!!!
Im starting to wonder about stealing the crank out of the monza's original 262 v8 and see what combination I can come up with for stock pistons and rod lengths.....3.1 stroke and 4" bore.....hello!!

jeff swisher said:
here are some numbers i got with a 601 head my first set
stock valves 1.84 & 1.50's and stock factory valve job just blending the bowls and lapping the valves,and some chamber work
The throats were opened up to .85% on this heads
I will be curious as to how the 416 heads do ...I need to finish the 1.94-1.60 "601" castings i am working on..did not plan to flow them but i could.

IN EX

.1-----
.2-116/95
.3-166/127
.4-199/159
.5-208/171
.6-211/174

those are great numbers especially for a 1.84 valve!

Highway Star

· #10 · May 12, 2010 (Edited)

You sound like you know what you're doing with these heads. You're going to find out that they will run wild on a 283, but they'll work and work WELL on even a 350.:yes: Keep those vortec numbers handy.

ls71chevelle

· #11 · May 13, 2010

Whats the biggest cam you can use with these heads on a 350 ?

Highway Star

· #12 · May 13, 2010

I think it has yet to be determined...I'm running a 284, a bud is running a 292, and my buddy Jeff is going to be running one bigger than that here soon enough.

jeff swisher

· #13 · May 13, 2010

ls71chevelle said:
Whats the biggest cam you can use with these heads on a 350 ?

that all depends on the retainer to guide seal clearance..what springs
but i have clearanced some that went over .650" more than you need for a street car..

i have checked some stock ones with the good umbrella seals and stock retainers and .450" is getting close...so dont just pick some up and think a spring change and you get to run the .480 lift cam cause you may get in trouble

i felt that the flow i got from the 1.84 valve was crap on my first head
but there was still that big lump below the intake valve on the long side
I did remove some of it to create the swirl ramp effect...
I had a few tricks up my sleve also,, and Highwaystar got some of them on his 601's

I kicked the chamber out around the exaust valve on 1 pair i play with quite far almost to the 4" bore size like i used to do on the old double humps with the 1.60 valves and it did not pick up any flow anywhere

i can't wait to see some of your tricks Big Orange

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jeff swisher

· #14 · May 13, 2010

Have ran that old crane 518-536 on a 106 with the 601 heads but lost some lobes,,before i found out about the zddp issues.

next up is the same grind but single pattern .536-.536 and the duration at .050 on this particular grind is 252 at .050...at least that is what is written on the master lobe...will be running it on a 106lsa
have not decided on lifters yet...old style or EDM

daily driver of course

kettbo

· #15 · May 13, 2010

ls71chevelle said:
Whats the biggest cam you can use with these heads on a 350 ?

Biggest is not best.

I bought a set of 416s from a pal that were off an eBay ad. The 416's chambers were too small for his use. The heads came with 2.02/1.60 SS valves, .510" springs, etc. I removed the big chamber bathtub heads from my smogger dished-piston 350, on with the 416s. Huge difference going from around 8:1 CR to 10:1 CR

. Unknown small cam in there but in 30+ years of working on my stuff and helping others with theirs, this is the biggest night and day upgrade EVER for a street deal.

Sometime back when I upgraded to mild 454 power, I sold the heads to Seattle youngster Chad. They went onto his flattop shortblock (around 11:1 CR) with a cam like a 60103 Voodoo I had ground locally by Delta on a 112 LSA. Full wt, 2800-3000 stall, 3.73 gears, DRs, Chad has run 13.1s at Bremerton. Some improvement available in this combo too. Torquey engine for sure.

Lilracr

· #16 · May 13, 2010

The good thing about the 416 head is the small chamber for the small bore engines, but don't be fooled, these heads will not make nearly the power a Vortec head will.

With the 416 head on a 350, they work well with a 1.94 valve, with the chamber opened to unshroud the valve and a smaller cam in the 220 duration at .050 range. Much more than that they are limited with flow and velocity issues as the larger cam will want to turn past what the heads will carry the RPM efficiently.

If you have a low compression problem and want a quick fix, the 416 heads are perfect!

I have not inspected or flowed a set, but there are the 305 Vortec heads out there, from what I am told they have the good port and chamber design, but are aslo designed for the small bore of a 305. This could be huge power gains on a 283/307 motor.

kettbo

· #17 · May 13, 2010

Lilracr said:
With the 416 head on a 350, they work well with a 1.94 valve, with the chamber opened to unshroud the valve and a smaller cam in the 220 duration at .050 range. Much more than that they are limited with flow and velocity issues as the larger cam will want to turn past what the heads will carry the RPM efficiently.

60103 voodoo is a bit bigger than that at 227/233. Probably the absolute end of the line with a 350 for the small runner size. Lots of 350s with this runner size 160-165cc. The engine is done at 6100-6200

Tacoma area circle track cyl head guy says he gets the best results with 1.94/1.60

Highway Star

· #18 · May 14, 2010 (Edited)

Lilracr said:
The good thing about the 416 head is the small chamber for the small bore engines, but don't be fooled, these heads will not make nearly the power a Vortec head will.

If you are talking stock casting to stock casting, I guess I agree, but this entire discussion is about what will happen to a set of well-ported 305 heads. I hope your hungry for some words. because you'll be eating yours by the time this thread is over. I have already seen flow results with a set of 305 heads that flowed over 240cfm.

Lilracr said:
With the 416 head on a 350, they work well with a 1.94 valve, with the chamber opened to unshroud the valve and a smaller cam in the 220 duration at .050 range. Much more than that they are limited with flow and velocity issues as the larger cam will want to turn past what the heads will carry the RPM efficiently.

This is a myth, and an almost laughable one at that...

My 355 with 220 duration (@ .050) / 108 LSA cam pulls HARD waaay over 6000. I'm too chicken to rev it past 6500, but it wants to keep going, as it is pulling like mother when I shift out at 6500. My intakes are 170 though.

Lilracr said:
If you have a low compression problem and want a quick fix, the 416 heads are perfect!

:thumbsup:

jeff swisher

· #19 · May 14, 2010

we need to all be nice this is a test thread...I wish the stinking vortec heads had a lower runner roof and same bolt pattern so i could test them on a 355 with 2 4's on a tunnelram...I do not think the big mismatch would be a benefit if it would even seal up.....

Believe me i have thought about trying them,,,,BUT the runners are not small on the 305 heads,,the modified ones are 170cc and above with the 1.84 valve
my set of 186 castings after porting with a 1.94" valve and a throat that was 85% was only 158cc...
I got the flow sheet around here somewhere..something like 220or 225cfm intake and 195 cfm exaust
i need to cc a bunch of heads and see what i get for stock stuff not that it really matters though,,
i would rather have a smaller runner that flowed more air and had a better shaped runner to aid atomization.

a good shape and the rpm's will follow

Lilracr

· #20 · May 14, 2010

Has anyone flowed the 416 head and checked velocity with a pitot tube to see actual air speed around the pushrod pinch and short turn?

Don't get me wrong, I have a couple sets of the 416 heads and some other 305 castings just for the smaller chambers, but when you you want to compare a fully ported 416 head to a bone stock vortec head the dyno power will be close if not still better with the vortec head, take into consideration that everything would be the same, compression, cam, correct intake, etc....

The vortec design is the best designed factory head produced until you get into the LS series stuff period!

Look at your low lift numbers that have been posted, the vortec stock numbers will go close to 240 cfm at .500 lift, Not saying a 416 head could not do that, but most don't have access to a flow bench or even willing to spend the 10-20 hours it will take to get 240cfm from a 416 head..

I also hear talk about circle track guys, they are made to use certain heads, most are not allowed to use vortec heads, if there was a choice to use a 416 head or a vortec head, you better believe the vortec head will be on the motor.

I am really glad there is others just like me that are willing to put a bunch of time into a stock head that most consider junk as it's a "305" head. And you bet if I were going to build a 283-307" motor it would have a set of ported 416 heads on there. Even if it was a low compression motor with a standard head swap the 416 is a great head. But to build a 4" bore or larger small block that performance is goal the 416 head is no better than a ported double hump head.

My whole point is that the the 416 has it's place when you have the means and time to do the work. But to say it's better than a vortec head just isn't true.

Lets keep this going with before and after track numbers and good data!

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